Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jan 16, 2012 9:55:33 GMT -5
We all accepted that someone called Billy Barlow was killed that night and buried as Billy the kid but What was Barlow real name? Brushy said that Billy Barlow was an alias name. And Fort Sumner resident John Graham confrimed that the body had a beard and brown skin. So what was Barlow real name and how old was he when he died? Also mr Wayne Land, I want you to study thid for me. It is on www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=5183913Barlow is said to be on here, a relative of the Texas Clements family," ("Mammen" Clements, gunman, cousin to John Wesley Hardin was a member) "
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Post by jsaunders on Jan 14, 2014 17:04:30 GMT -5
Mannen Clements is related to John Westly Harding. They can be found in Gonzales County, Texas along with Barlow families. I haven't done the genealogy to connect the famikies but if I read this right Brushy said he believed he was related to the Clements family not Westly Harding. So that would be the starting point. Also Barlow could be spelled Barlough so another way to research. Now how would Brushy get these family names right. Barlows, Hardins and Clements all in the same area at the same time. Is it jist a coincident, I doubt that. These are not names that I run across all the time during my researching. Non of these names are commonly seen in all towns. I believe he knew Billy Barlow/Barlough and was told he was related to the Clements by Billy Barlow/Barlough. I red someone believes Brushy got that name from a song written back in 1834. Laughable really far fetched and highly unlikely. This memory of Brushy's is probably the best information there could be in proving Brushys story is true.
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Post by MissyS on Oct 1, 2014 12:34:26 GMT -5
I know this is an old thread but didnt see the need to create a new one for the same topic, & Im going to try and shorten this , in the Bill Rakocy book "The Kid, Billy The Kid" on pg. 234 theres a copy of an article , it looks like it was copied from El Paso Times June 30th, 1938 pg. 4, it's about a lady named Mrs. L. A. Cardwell of Las Cruces, she tells about meeting a prospector named Manuel Taylor that stopped at her camp, he told her and whomever she was camping with that he was born in La Mesilla and came to Silver City during the Chloride Flats Boom, he said he knew Billy The Kid and him and another young man pried the bars off the chimney top of the old adobe jail so Billy could climb out, & also raced horses with him, he told her he had seen the Kid in Guadalajara Mexico in 1914, they had drinks together , he was married and had a family, and also still had his buck teeth at the time and was heavier, he said the man killed at Maxwell's was a young cattle detective that came in from the east and expected to make some easy money capturing cattle rustlers and got hit by mistake, Mrs. Caldwell had him repeat the story because she never heard it before and he did, and that he could not be mistaken about the identity of the man he had drinks with, later while in Hillsboro she inquired about Manuel Taylor and was told he was well known in the town and truthful and trustworthy. Some time back I tried to look up if there were any detectives that went missing around that time, I tried to pull up anything from Pinkerton and a couple others but nothing came up. If he was a detective it would make sense, he wouldn't have told Billy his real name and maybe he was hired to find Billy for the Bounty?, and makes me wonder if Billy caught on that he was a detective and sent him into a trap that night? It's just another avenue to research.
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Post by Nik Oak on Mar 24, 2015 12:42:32 GMT -5
I thought that you might be interested in something that occurred to me about Billy Barlow. Perhaps we have been looking for him in the wrong place
Regarding the story that the person who was really killed at Maxwells place was someone who had just arrived in New Mexico with the intention of making easy money by finding and turning in cattle rustlers for the reward money.
What if Billy Barlow was such a person? It would certainly explain a lot, when he found Billy he may have thought that here was his ticket to fame and fortune. It would explain why Barlow befriended Billy, who was after all the most wanted man in New Mexico, with good price on his head. After all it must have been very dangerous to be Billys companion.
When you think of it, it would explain the peculiar behaviour of whoever was killed that night and possibly much more.
If Barlow saw the lawmen, and got stressed out thinking that they might take his prize away from him, he may not have realised that he might be mistaken for Billy the Kid. This would be constant with his apparent disregard for any threat posed to him.
It also would explain why he got past the two deputies waiting outside Pete Maxwells bedroom, since they would have seen him and realised that he was not their man. It would explain why he was so fixated on who the men outside were, explains why he went into Maxwells bedroom with apparent disregard for the two deputies, and once in there didn't spot Garrett, since he had his mind on other things. He may have spoken to Maxwell in Spanish either because he didn't know who was in the room or because was stressed out at the thought of loosing what was within his grasp, or both.
Its only a theory, but who knows?
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 24, 2015 15:15:44 GMT -5
Nik,
Everything you say makes sense. But I think the reason Barlow spoke to the deputies in Spanish was because that was his native language. Maybe he knew a little English and maybe the claims that he spoke to Maxwell in English are correct. But Barlow was either Spanish or half Spanish. The newspaper reported he had dark skin and a mustache. I would describe my feelings about Brushy being the real Billy The Kid as "quite certain" but with some lingering doubt and questions. I would describe my opinion regarding Billy's alleged death at the hands of Garrett as "absolutely not". Didn't happen. Garrett shot the wrong man that night. Was his name Billy Barlow? I can't be absolutely certain about that but I feel absolutely certain Billy the Kid was not killed that night at Maxwell's.
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Post by MissyS on Apr 19, 2015 22:21:18 GMT -5
Thinking back of Billy The Kid's friends that seem to have dissapeared from historical record after just a mention or two, it seems a little odd that we know the fates of Dave Rudabaugh, Billy Wilson, Tom Pickett, the Dedricks and even Buck Edwards, but Sam Cook also known as Joe Cook was a member of the Rustlers that is mentioned once or twice and then not at all, he was mentioned as being a member of the Rustler's and being with the Kid when Carlyle was shot, and no more said of what ever happened to him, it's not that unusual to lose track of many Regulators as there were many and we know many went their seperate ways, but even at that we still know what became of many of them, however the Rustler's was a somewhat smaller group that formed with Billy The Kid, I just wonder why no information would exist about a known member, could it be that the man changed his name or alias name?, after Carlyle was shot either by the posse or by the Rustlers Sam or Joe Cook may have been worried about being wanted in connection with that shooting and decided to change his name perhaps to Billy Barlow? it's just an idea or theory, and I know it's a long shot but whoever Billy Barlow was, if he lived around Fort Sumner I believe he didn't live there long or use the name Billy Barlow long because of census records, I also believe the detective theory could be plausible because at the time there were counterfeiting involving a few of the Rustlers as well as rustling, however if any stranger entered the area it would draw alot of attention, whenever Garrett sent spies into town to check on Billy's whereabouts they were met with great suspicion, if an under cover detective was in the area for a spell he would need to gain trust with Billy and or the town that protected him, this is why I believe Barlow was a good enough friend that was trusted, he may have decieved Billy /Brushy pretending to be his friend to gain information, but it would take some time to gain his trust, joining his gang would be a way to do that. so maybe Barlow could have been a gang member?
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Post by 44colt on Apr 24, 2015 9:23:25 GMT -5
This is great dialogue. I always felt that the fact that Brushy mentioned Barlow was related to the Clements would prove to be relevant somehow and always hoped it would lead to hard evidence. As with almost everything Brushy....the casual details he added to his narrative are a treasure trove of information and evidence to support his claims.
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Post by Nik Oak on May 14, 2015 14:26:47 GMT -5
A little while ago I had a really crazy idea. After thinking about it for a while, I began to wonder if, just maybe, it wasn't so crazy after all, so in the spirit of brainstorming, here it is.
Wouldn't it be really cool if Billy Barlow was the same person as John Miller. I realize that it does not fit all of the facts as generally believed, but it does fit almost all of them. This would explain John Millers story and Isabella's story.
I could go on with a long justification of this really radical idea, but thought that I would like to leave it as it is for other more knowledgeable people than I to consider and comment on.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 14, 2015 15:15:00 GMT -5
Not so far fetched in my opinion. I actually have suggested the same possibility some time back. The problem with such theories is that there is absolutely nothing to support it. But yes, I think John Miller might have been Billy Barlow. Physically, I just don't think he could have been Billy, but if he was Barlow and Billy got away that night then Billy may never have known that his friend didn't actually die that night either. It would explain many things. Billy and Barlow ride into Sumner, Barlow gets himself shot by Garrett and Billy escapes, then Barlow is hidden away by the senioritas, an empty coffin is buried, Barlow is nursed back to health and runs away to take on the alias of John Miller. Then years later he tells family he is Billy The Kid because in a way, for one night, he sort of was. At least Garrett thought he was.
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Post by markmak on May 14, 2015 18:57:42 GMT -5
Interesting, Nic, could be. Great concept really. If there was not photo evidence, and such, one could say John was BTK and Brushy is Barlow. But like I said photos seem to match Brushy. John Millers wife was the supposed one who told people he was Billy with a wound to prove it. How he was shot, but was still breathing, mended and married him hahaha! Hey if he was Billy she settled his butt down. Compared to our Brushy who seemed to do quit a bit. I have attached this photo on internet showing John Miller pic does not line up. Maybe Wayne, or someone, can help with better photos comps of Miller and BTK debunking John. Or explain this one better then I can. Thanks! Love this board! SO much BTK stuff on my mind, reading this and that, finishing Roy Haws book, wanting Morrisons!!!! I have actually dreamt BTK, Sheesh!
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Post by markmak on May 15, 2015 22:43:28 GMT -5
Garrett, Pat, The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid ,"Quickly as possible I drew my revolver and fired, threw my body aside, and fired again. The second shot was useless; the Kid fell dead. He never spoke. A struggle or two, a little strangling sound as he gasped for breath, and the Kid was with his many victims." Garrett never said BTK died, but dramatically says "fell dead" but then recants immediately! and states 'but gasped for breath.' A Hunter will tell you when you shot a fatal shot, there is no more breathing, punto. So Garrett, assuming death is inevitable, left Barlow to the women....and probably Barlow lived, the women threw a previous dead body into casket, with dark skin and mustache, cause that was a Mexican who died night before. Heck, maybe that indian woman always liked Barlow, mended, roped and married his butt! I am sure he's been there before with Billy, or why would be so comfortable going to Pete's?
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Post by markmak on May 15, 2015 23:02:21 GMT -5
Taken from www.angelfire.com/mi2/billythekid/qandi.html•What about the other deputy there that night, Thomas McKinney? He never spoke publicly about the shooting, although various second-hand sources claim that, in private, he did tell the "real" story of what happened. According to miner Frederick Grey, who allegedly knew McKinney, the deputy told him that he, Garrett, and Poe went into the bedroom of Paulita Maxwell, tied and gagged her, and when Billy came by later that night, Garrett shot him from concealment. Although at first listen this does seem more likely than the versions Garrett and Poe told, on closer inspection it loses credibility. Surely, Pete Maxwell would not have permitted his sister to be abused in such manner, and, even if he did, Paulita herself would have been very vocal of her mistreatment. According to some McKinney relatives, he told a different story from the one he reportedly told Grey. In this version, McKinney stated that he killed the man in the Maxwell bedroom. This man was discovered to not be Billy, while the real Kid escaped. Another story that McKinney reportedly told other relatives was that Garrett shot the wrong man on the porch, while the real Kid escaped. Why did McKinney tell all these different versions in secret? Whatever the reason, the differing claims he made tend to destroy his credibility completely.<end> May I add, if she was used as a trap, then "protecting girls reputation" may mean something, as I read on this board! If it was an ambush, could there have been a gunfight and Brushy really did take a graze in the jaw! because if there was a massive lie told by the few, how do we really know there was 2 shots fired only? Heck one bullet could have been thru Barlow, and out of Barlow into wall!! That was close range! That accounts for one shot. Either way McKinney said in both storys, the real Kid escaped!
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Post by markmak on May 15, 2015 23:14:29 GMT -5
www.wikitree.com/wiki/McKinney-1002 Biography
8th of 11 children, Thomas Christopher "Kip" McKinney was born on 19 March 1856 in Birdville, Tarrant Co., Texas to Thalis Newton McKinney Sr. 1817 - 1886) and Minerva Margaret Bates (1822 - 1882). Kip predominately grew up in Uvalde Co. Texas where his father was a Rancher/Cattle Raiser. There have been numerous stories written with or about Kip, his family, and other relatives. Kip was best known as a Frontier peace officer like many of his cousins, Tolbert Fannin McKinney, Thalis Tucker Cook, and others. Kip was a best known as the deputy sheriff who was in Sheriff Pat Garrett's posse when Garrett shot and killed Billy the Kid in Fort Sumner. In the mid to late 1870s, Kip and his father drove a herd of cattle from Palo Duro, Texas to Seven Rivers, New Mexico. There Kip hooked up with the cattle rustling gang known as the Seven Rivers Warriors, but apparently left the gang and returned to Texas before the Lincoln County War erupted. In the late 1870s or early 1880s, he became a Texas Ranger, as well as a deputy U. S. marshal. With this authority, he tracked rustlers throughout Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. In the spring of 1881, Sheriff Pat Garrett of Lincoln County, NM, appointed Kip a deputy as well. Later, he traveled to Arizona on the trail of horse thief Buck Edwards, who was a former member of Billy the Kid's gang of outlaws. Accompanied by a posse, Kip tracked Edwards back to the outlaw's dugout at Rattlesnake Springs, New Mexico on May 8, 1881. A gunfight erupted, with Kip killing Edwards. Kip then traveled to Roswell, where in mid-July, he was picked up by Garrett and fellow deputy, John Poe. The three men rode to Fort Sumner, for the purpose of investigating rumors of Billy the Kid's presence. On July 14, Garrett allegedly shot and killed the Kid in Pete Maxwell's bedroom. While Garrett and Poe later recited their versions of the night's events, Kip preferred to not discuss it. He did allegedly tell three different versions though, to a friend and family members. The first was that he, Garrett, and McKinney tied up Billy's girlfriend to bait Billy, then Garrett shot him from ambush. The second was that Kip himself shot someone, only that it was the wrong man. The final story was that Garrett killed the wrong man on the porch of Pete Maxwell's house, and that the real Kid escaped. On July 24, 1882, Kip married Letitia T. Smith and was soon after hired by the U. S. Army to serve as a scout for wagon trains. By 1891, he was working at Fort Huachuca and later served in the Spanish-American War as a guide. Later still, he drifted along the southwest as a miner. He died of lung cancer on Sept. 21, 1915. Kip was portrayed by the veteran character actor Richard Jaeckel in Sam Peckinpah's 1973 film Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. VERY IMPORTANT! The first was that he, Garrett, and McKinney tied up Billy's girlfriend to bait Billy, then Garrett shot him from ambush. The second was that Kip himself shot someone, only that it was the wrong man. {BRUSHY,which in realty was the right man! And Brushy took a graze to jaw and head while running away like he said!. Mckiney fiqures wrong man does not chase!!!} The final story was that Garrett killed the wrong man on the porch of Pete Maxwell's house, and that the real Kid escaped. ( EITHER WAY McKinney shot at someone!!!!!) all making sense because Brushy fell at a door, and McKinney fiqures he was shooting at a Friend of billys runnin away! And only Pat said two shots to kill Billy. Everyone only looks at that, not the 3 fired at Brushy running away! Because who cares to add a lame fact billy may have had a friend who ran, when the big story is BILLY IS DEAD@ lets only talk about those two bullet shots. Protecting the fact McKinney shot at innocents, more less. (Brushy running and falling after taking some wounds AND THEREFORE DID NOT LIE!!!!!!!!!)
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Post by MissyS on May 16, 2015 0:59:29 GMT -5
Hi markmak, I want to understand what yours and other posted ideas are, both Billy the Kid and Billy Barlow could have both went into Pete's room together or seperately?, and a gunfight insued, by accident Barlow was shot and the Kid was shot in the jaw, (close to what Brushy claimed) Garrett had no reason to shoot Barlow as he wasn't wanted and since both men were named Billy and the thought that no one would recognize the real Billy the Kid after the shot to his jaw , or maybe he thought he killed the real Kid? so Garrett claimed he shot Billy the Kid, Barlow pretends to be dead and then he's nursed and cared for until well and escapes, the Kid also gets cared for and escapes, both Billy's have no idea of the wellfare of the other as both believe the other dead, so Barlow then after escaping claimed he's the Kid. and Brushy thought Barlow was buried, but maybe the coffin was burried with no one in it? I can largely understand why Garrett would claim Barlow was the Kid, after all he did mistakingly shoot two men thinking they were Billy, Ofolliard and Bowdre, so I can understand Garrett not wanting to be known to make the mistake a third time? maybe the one bullet went through Barlow and ricocheted into the Kid's jaw, or vise versa?, the Kid shoots back at Garrett but with his face a bloody mess he can't see straight and misses, so two shots fired , two shots heard. All the deputy's decide to split the reward , but they didn't get together to get the story straight so each told their own story of what happened. it's a huge stretch but not all impossible stretch, the possibility of a woman being tied up makes sense because Garrett had used Manuela Bowdre ( Charlie's wife) kinda as bait when he shot Ofolliard, the story was Garrett's posse waited to ambush the Kid and his gang by waiting by the home of Bowdre located at the hospital section of Fort Sumner, he knew Bowdre would want to see his wife so he kinda in a way used her as bait, I believe he very well could have tied up a lady , this lady would'nt say anything about being tied up if she knew the Kid had lived?
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Post by Nik Oak on May 27, 2015 15:45:45 GMT -5
I am increasingly interested in John Miller and in the theory that he might be Billy Barlow.
I've ordered the book "Whatever Happened To Billy The Kid" by Helen L Airy and hope to learn a bit more about Miller from that. In the meantime I thought that I would make a very rough photographic comparison between Isadora and Manuella Bowdre from images easily available on the web. It's very unsophisticated, but to me the resemblance looks amazing even the pose looks the same in all three photographs. I've included two different pictures of Manuella which both show the same pose. I know that they look very similar, but that's because I've cropped them.
I realise that this proves nothing really other than to give more credibility to Isadora's story of her and Millers past at Fort Sumner
What does everyone else think? Perhaps someone else might make a better job of the comparison.
Unfortunately I can't manage to attach the picture to this text. Can someone explain how?
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