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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 16, 2016 1:06:39 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller,
I hope Cowboy Barlow will share more information about his background that will allow us to search for a connection between his ancestor and the Clements family since Brushy said Billy Barlow was related to them. At this point, I certainly can't take his story at face value and assume it is all correct. "But", your arguments against it are, in my opinion, meaningless. If, in fact, Billy The Kid was "not" killed by Garrett in 1881 then it is entirely feasible that Cowboy Barlow's great grandmother could have met him. Your argument is like trying to insist "it can't be true because it isn't true" but you never really provide any evidence to support that. You really do know, don't you, that records after 1911 do not prove that Oliver P. Roberts was not really Billy The Kid living under an alias. I have three college degrees and a reasonably good IQ. I'm not ignorant nor am I gullible. But, I've been at this for many years and have studied every angle and while I freely admit there are questions about Brushy's voracity that are difficult to answer, there is "no" proof he wasn't who he said he was. None. There's evidence to support that belief for sure, but there's no proof. At the same time, there is a huge trove of evidence he was exactly who he said he was. I wish we could discuss both sides of it without trying to state fact where we can't demonstrate fact. Maybe one day there will be solid proof one way or the other.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 16, 2016 12:51:17 GMT -5
Another example, if you hear someone speaking Spanish you can say 'I know he speaks Spanish.' But if you don't hear someone speaking Spanish you should not say "He doesn't know how to speak Spanish!" That doesn't make any sense but the latter is the type of arguments I keep hearing everywhere I go.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 18, 2016 18:23:20 GMT -5
"I hope Cowboy Barlow will share more information about his background that will allow us to search for a connection between his ancestor and the Clements family since Brushy said Billy Barlow was related to them."
Smoke and mirrors. See p. 76 of Alias Billy the Kid. Weakest link in Brushy's narrative. No record of any kind re. Billy Barlow. Brushy was just following the example of the impostor J. Frank Dalton who appointed the imaginary Charlie Bigelow to occupy Jesse James' coffin in 1882 so he could then sign an affidavit that he was the real Jesse Woodson James.
P. 76, Alias Billy the Kid. Brushy SEEMED to think that Barlow was connected to the Clements family. John Wesley Hardin was in fact related to the Clements family. John Wesley Hardin was elated to my distant relatives, Joseph Hardin Clements (19 Nov 1886 - 10 Nov 1971) and George Clements (28 Sep 1896 - 4 May 1973), both of whom were prominent sheep ranchers in New Mexico. Their mother, Amanda Elizabeth Clements Clements (she married an unrelated Clements), was the daughter of Joseph Hardin Clements. Joseph Hardin Clements was the son of Emanuel Clements and Martha Balch Hardin. John Wesley Hardin was the son of James Gibson Hardin and Elizabeth Cartwright Dixon. James Gibson Hardin and Martha Balch Hardin Clements were siblings.
The fictional Billy Barlow was not related to the Clements family.
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Post by clydec on Jul 18, 2016 19:45:44 GMT -5
I have to say that I agree with you on Billy Barlow. I think Brushy made that one up to make himself look better because he probably hid out until Garrett and his deputies left and did not want to be thought of as a coward.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 18, 2016 20:09:33 GMT -5
Maybe there were more than the eight people you listed in the family, or maybe he wasn't really related but kinda just connected, like a distant relative. When I was on ancestry.com I did see a family made up of Clements and Barlows but it appeared they didn't become family until after 1881. Maybe Billy Barlow was James Gibson Hardin. Also if Amanda Elizabeth Clements Clements married an unrelated Clements there should be a lot of Clements. Records get kind of hard to. Years ago, (2005)someone had posted on an ancestry site that they had a relative named Billy Barlow and all they knew about him was that he was involved in LCW, I found it interesting that they didn't even mention Brushy, I was too poor at the time to get on the message board.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 19, 2016 0:11:44 GMT -5
McKinley, you are correct. There were many, many, Clements who were descendants of Emanuel Clements and Martha Balch Hardin. That does not change the fact that no record of Billy Barlow has been found. There is no reason to believe Billy Barlow existed. Brushy Bill's word is hearsay unless a reliable source is found that confirms his story.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 20, 2016 0:14:33 GMT -5
Do you believe there are any truths that have not been proven? Not just about Brushy, but about anyone or anything. Do you believe anyone has ever lived, since the Civil War, without leaving behind any record of their existence?
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Post by Brandon herman on May 20, 2017 13:59:15 GMT -5
Cowboy Barlow, "She died in 1998 and she was never one to lie she just enjoyed sharing her knowledge. " If you have provided her correct death date, she was probably born after 1898, at least 17 years after Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid. There is no New Mexico death certificate for William Bonney, but there is a coroner's jury report. There are also 1881 newspaper articles reporting his death. There is no credible evidence that Billy the Kid was alive after July 1881. The most convincing part of Brushy Bill's story was his detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County war. Brushy Bill Roberts repeated many details of the Lincoln County war found in "The Saga of Billy the Kid", published in 1926 by Walter Noble Burns. Brushy Bill Roberts appeared in marriage, census, and land records after 1911, as Oliver P. Roberts and O. P. Roberts. Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, also resided in Van Zandt County, in 1911. There is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver P. Roberts were two different men. Ahh, brushy bill had6credible evidence. He had all the scars from guns and knives billy the kid supposedly had, 3 friends who knew billy the kid signed an affidavit saying they agreed brushy was the kid. Pat garrett deputy even was recorded saying he shot the wrong man, and yes it was recorded buddy so don't try telling me otherwise.
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Post by Brandon herman on May 20, 2017 14:01:30 GMT -5
Cowboy Barlow, "She died in 1998 and she was never one to lie she just enjoyed sharing her knowledge. " If you have provided her correct death date, she was probably born after 1898, at least 17 years after Pat Garrett killed Billy the Kid. There is no New Mexico death certificate for William Bonney, but there is a coroner's jury report. There are also 1881 newspaper articles reporting his death. There is no credible evidence that Billy the Kid was alive after July 1881. The most convincing part of Brushy Bill's story was his detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County war. Brushy Bill Roberts repeated many details of the Lincoln County war found in "The Saga of Billy the Kid", published in 1926 by Walter Noble Burns. Brushy Bill Roberts appeared in marriage, census, and land records after 1911, as Oliver P. Roberts and O. P. Roberts. Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, also resided in Van Zandt County, in 1911. There is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver P. Roberts were two different men. Ahh, brushy bill had6credible evidence. He had all the scars from guns and knives billy the kid supposedly had, 3 friends who knew billy the kid signed an affidavit saying they agreed brushy was the kid. Pat garrett deputy even was recorded saying he shot the wrong man, and yes it was recorded buddy so don't try telling me otherwise. And if course some of his story was sketchy, the man was 90 for God's sake. But one things for sure, garrett was a fraud and billy the kid lived on.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2017 17:55:30 GMT -5
Brandon Herman, A rather remarkable assertion and specious conclusion. Let’s begin with Brushy Bill’s “credible” evidence.
“Brushy Bill had all the scars that Billy the Kid had.” Really? Morrison gave us Brushy Bill’s explanation of scars on his body. Where is a description, with the size and location, of each scar on Billy the Kid’s body? Perhaps you have seen an autopsy report that no one else has seen. Or you believe Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid so a comparison is superfluous.
“Three friends who signed an affidavit saying they agreed Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.” WOW!! Elbert DeWitt Travis, Martile Able, and Robert E. Lee were three of the five individuals who signed affidavits stating they BELIEVED Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. DeWitt Travis was born about 1890. Martile Able nee Bilberry, 7 years old, was living in Lampasas County, Texas, in 1880. Robert E. Lee swore in his affidavit that he first met Billy the Kid in the summer of 1889. All had met Brushy Bill. Billy the Kid was killed in 1881, and none of the three had seen Billy the Kid. Credible evidence? OOPS!!! Additionally, Morrison requested signed affidavits from two old men, Bill and Sam Jones, whose brothers had known William Bonney. They declined to sign affidavits that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
“Pat garrett deputy even was recorded saying he shot the wrong man, and yes it was recorded buddy so don't try telling me otherwise.” Is that everything Poe said? I believe he also said that he was relieved to find it was not the wrong man.
“And if some of his story was sketchy, Brushy Bill was 90.” Surely you are aware that Brushy Bill registered for the World War I draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts when he lived in Little River County, Arkansas. That’s where his wife, Mollie Brown Roberts is buried in Pauley Cemetery. He reported his birth year as 1878 on his WWI draft registration card. Then in the 1920 census, he reported his approximate birth year as 1878. Same thing again, 1878 birth year, in the 1930 census. Brushy Bill was 90 when he claimed he was Billy the Kid? Only if you believe the Tooth Fairy leaves $20 gold pieces under the pillow for each tooth.
“But one things for sure, garrett was a fraud and billy the kid lived on.” Garrett was a fraud? A baseless claim without conclusive or verifiable evidence. Billy the Kid lived on? He was buried the next day. He will live until the end of time in conspiracy theories.
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Post by mckinley412 on May 20, 2017 18:16:39 GMT -5
1940 census he lists DOB as 1870. 1910 census he lists birthplace as Texas and parents as being born in Kentucky. Maybe he lied about his age so he could date younger women and then finally came clean in the end.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2017 18:55:42 GMT -5
Thain, Brushy Bill's story is riddled with inconsistencies. You are correct. Ollie Roberts was reported as 70 years old in the 1940 census. His first cemetery marker had a birth year of 1868. The 1910 census indicated both his parents were born in Kentucky. Census records are not notarized documents. Information found in a single census record is less credible that consistent information about an individual found in several census records.
What credible information exists that supports Brushy Bill's claim that he was born in 1859 rather than 1879? The 1879 birth date in his registration for the WWI draft, 1920 census, and 1930 census are consistent. That 1879 date is also consistent with the birth year of Oliver Pleasant Roberts in the 1880, 1900, and 1910 census, and the date from the Roberts family Bible provided by his niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon.
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Post by mckinley412 on May 20, 2017 21:29:04 GMT -5
He also lists Texas as birthplace on another census. Also one census mentioned that he could read and write. His birth dates are given as 1859, 1861, 1868, 1878, 1879. There is no consistency. You know who else does that? Billy the Kid. He's supposedly said he was from New York, he also said he was born in Missouri on a census and changed his age. Who knows? But Brushy admitted he stole someone's identity so I'm sure if he was gonna use their name he just might use a fake birthday also. And the Barlow and Clements family is related although the record I saw happened at a later date. R.I.P. Billy Barlow.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 20, 2017 22:46:54 GMT -5
Thain, It is true that the birthplace of Oliver P Roberts was shown as Arkansas in the 1880 and 1900 census, and as Texas in the 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 census years.
No record has been found that Oliver P. Roberts in the 1910 Van Zandt County census was not the Oliver Roberts that married Mollie Brown in 1912 in Van Zandt County.
"What credible information exists that supports Brushy Bill's claim that he was born in 1859 rather than 1879?"
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Post by Wayne Land on May 21, 2017 13:58:23 GMT -5
Just food for thought, but, why must we assume that Brushy even "knew" his exact birthdate and year? In the first half of the 20th century there were elderly folks who because of poor record keeping in the 1800's and partially because it wasn't information they felt was all that vital, had to guess their own birth year and date when asked. I know for a fact growing up I had elderly relatives that weren't sure how old they were. If Brushy (Billy) didn't really know for sure, that could account for discrepancies.
On the other hand, even if he did know for certain, he might well have reported different dates to different census takers, etc. in order to try and throw any possible investigators off his trail. Not a strategy that would have been particularly genius level, but no one said Billy The Kid was a genius. In fact, the very existence of all the discrepancies regarding his age and birthplace is one of the best reasons to believe he really was Billy. Either he really didn't know when and where he was born or he was intentionally misleading about it. Why would he mislead unless he had something to hide and thought it would help?
Think about it. The birth years changed according to the name he was using. If I'm remembering correctly, when he was pretending to be Oliver L. Roberts or just Ollie Roberts he said he was born in 1870 or 1868. When he was pretending to be Oliver Pleasant Roberts he gave 1878 or 1879 (because he wasn't certain the year his cousin was born).
All that only serves to strengthen my belief this man was indeed the one and only "Billy The Kid."
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