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Post by nmjames on Jul 31, 2021 19:44:53 GMT -5
devored,
As to your statement July 29, I agree that Brushy was not an astute reader but that is about all I agree with.
Billy the Kid, William H. Bonney, Kid and Kid Antrim was killed by Pat Garrett on or about July 14, 1881. There was a Corner and Jury called and they followed the rules of 1881. I have copies of the one in Spanish and English in my files but you can also find it in different newspapers of 1881. The one I like is the Las Cruces Sun News, Sat. July 23, 1881, page 2. You can also find a picture of the Corners Report in the El Paso Times, El Paso, Texas, August 5, 1951 page 13.
I also believe that Brushy Billy Roberts was Oliver P. Roberts born in 1879. Brushy had to make up stories to how he was Billy the Kid. Brushy had help and the ones I feel helped are J. Frank Dalton. On pages 3 & 4 in Alias Billy the Kid, Dalton is how Morrison found out where Brushy lived and made contact with him. The next person I feel helped Brushy was William V. Morrison for several reasons.
nmjames
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Post by devorerd on Aug 1, 2021 9:41:13 GMT -5
devored, As to your statement July 29, I agree that Brushy was not an astute reader but that is about all I agree with. Billy the Kid, William H. Bonney, Kid and Kid Antrim was killed by Pat Garrett on or about July 14, 1881. There was a Corner and Jury called and they followed the rules of 1881. I have copies of the one in Spanish and English in my files but you can also find it in different newspapers of 1881. The one I like is the Las Cruces Sun News, Sat. July 23, 1881, page 2. You can also find a picture of the Corners Report in the El Paso Times, El Paso, Texas, August 5, 1951 page 13. I also believe that Brushy Billy Roberts was Oliver P. Roberts born in 1879. Brushy had to make up stories to how he was Billy the Kid. Brushy had help and the ones I feel helped are J. Frank Dalton. On pages 3 & 4 in Alias Billy the Kid, Dalton is how Morrison found out where Brushy lived and made contact with him. The next person I feel helped Brushy was William V. Morrison for several reasons. nmjames nmjames, Appreciate the diligence and some common ground here. I'm a bit surprised that you mention the coroner's jury, which even by basic standards is a complete mess. Here is little help from Jameson: According to published history, Postmaster Milnor Rudolph was summoned to Fort Sumner from his residence six miles away early on the morning of July 15, 1881, to conduct an inquest on the death of a man Sheriff Garrett insisted was the Kid. Rudolph found the townspeople excited, confused and hostile. Garrett, Poe and McKinney were barricaded in the bedroom of rancher Pete Maxwell, concerned that they might be attacked by an angry mob sympathetic to the Kid and resentful of the lawmen. Inside that room, Rudolph soon learned, lay the body of a young man Garrett had shot hours earlier. Rudolph was placed in charge of a coroner’s jury and told to assemble witnesses. He enlisted five men and held a meeting in Maxwell’s bedroom, where the body still lay on the floor. However, in the book later written by Garrett and Upson, the sheriff claimed the body had been carried to a carpenter’s shop shortly after the shooting, where it was allegedly laid out for a wake. It is unlikely that the body was reclaimed from the wake and repositioned on the floor of Maxwell’s room. This was to be the first of several contradictions relating to the inquest of the man Garrett shot and killed. Rudolph and the five-man jury listened as Garrett and Maxwell recounted the events of a few hours earlier. History records that Rudolph then wrote out a report that was signed by the jurors. Those who could not write made their mark. The inquest concluded that “William Bonney was killed by a shot in the left breast, in the region of the heart, fired from a pistol in the hand of Patrick F. Garrett, and our verdict is that the act of the said Garrett was justifiable homicide, and we are unanimous in the opinion that the gratitude of the whole community is due to the said Garrett for his act and that he deserves to be rewarded.” For reasons that have never been explained, this coroner’s report was never entered into the official records of San Miguel County. Furthermore, Fort Sumner Justice Alejandro Segura never made an entry regarding this report in his own books. Even more perplexing is the fact that the Rudolph inquest was the second one conducted that day. I'm not a detective but geez, this sure has "ruse" written all over it, it's not that complicated if one really did kill the outlaw? Your references I've read and viewed, appreciate the effort their, the 1951 copy of a copy has red flags all over it. So since you agree Brushy was not an astute reader, what is your opinion on how all the knowledge was gained if he didn't in fact experience these events and was born in 1879? Lastly, any update on the Buckshot Roberts question? Cheers-devorerd |
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Post by kerry on Aug 1, 2021 10:52:07 GMT -5
According to Poe -Rudolph was Garrett's friend and safe house where they were to meet after Poe's under cover visit to Fort Sumner....Why were the Lawmen holed-up in Maxwell's house all night ? They were 3 fully armed American Lawmen -the local Hispanic community would have been more scared of them -Garrett had used the town before in an ambush of BTK without any such concerns - Garrett knew BTK was at large and had not been killed by Mckinney...
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Post by kerry on Aug 2, 2021 18:51:38 GMT -5
Pat Garrett found himself-not for the last time -stuck with gurgling body on his hands(Silva) and a deadly gunman at large(Oliver Lee).Without malice -Pat had tried 3 times to kill BTK -they could do a deal -they could still be friends...Pat's sister in law was available as an intermediary..
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 2, 2021 19:17:10 GMT -5
Pat Garrett found himself-not for the last time -stuck with gurgling body on his hands(Silva) and a deadly gunman at large(Oliver Lee).Without malice -Pat had tried 3 times to kill BTK -they could do a deal -they could still be friends...Pat's sister in law was available as an intermediary.. Very possible ! I like it. |
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Post by kerry on Aug 5, 2021 12:03:16 GMT -5
Pat Garrett found himself-not for the last time -stuck with gurgling body on his hands(Silva) and a deadly gunman at large(Oliver Lee).Without malice -Pat had tried 3 times to kill BTK -they could do a deal -they could still be friends...Pat's sister in law was available as an intermediary.. Pat had a body that had to be BTK -otherwise he had just sniped an innocent man...the old Fort cemetery was there to bury his mistakes and the timorous Pete Maxwell would go along with whatever he wanted -thereby so too Fort Sumner...the two deputy US marshals had no idea what BTK looked like.Silva said he went in first and turned the body onto its back...Garrett said it was found that way.Of all the said viewers of the body -no one mentioned the teeth...the foremost identifying feature of the Kid. |
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Post by leeb on Aug 5, 2021 13:30:11 GMT -5
Pat Garrett found himself-not for the last time -stuck with gurgling body on his hands(Silva) and a deadly gunman at large(Oliver Lee).Without malice -Pat had tried 3 times to kill BTK -they could do a deal -they could still be friends...Pat's sister in law was available as an intermediary.. Pat had a body that had to be BTK -otherwise he had just sniped an innocent man...the old Fort cemetery was there to bury his mistakes and the timorous Pete Maxwell would go along with whatever he wanted -thereby so too Fort Sumner...the two deputy US marshals had no idea what BTK looked like.Silva said he went in first and turned the body onto its back...Garrett said it was found that way.Of all the said viewers of the body -no one mentioned the teeth...the foremost identifying feature of the Kid. So Mr Garrett did kill the kid then? I thought you championed mckinney hiding on a porch with a rifle. Make your mind up |
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Post by kerry on Aug 5, 2021 15:37:56 GMT -5
Pat had a body that had to be BTK -otherwise he had just sniped an innocent man...the old Fort cemetery was there to bury his mistakes and the timorous Pete Maxwell would go along with whatever he wanted -thereby so too Fort Sumner...the two deputy US marshals had no idea what BTK looked like.Silva said he went in first and turned the body onto its back...Garrett said it was found that way.Of all the said viewers of the body -no one mentioned the teeth...the foremost identifying feature of the Kid. So Mr Garrett did kill the kid then? I thought you championed mckinney hiding on a porch with a rifle. Make your mind up -I hope Iv'e got an open mind Leeb ...Dead men do tell tales -they can't keep their mouth shut. If you had never seen BTK before -you would note a beard unexpected skin color...and of course - protruding front teeth.If you had seen BTK before -you would have focused on the front teeth that had been often concealed behind a smile.... |
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Post by cassandra jane on Aug 5, 2021 20:00:56 GMT -5
1. Brushy's account of his life. Specifically, his wording, he knew that Billy had never been declared dead, something many do not realize to this day, mostly casual readers. 2. He has been shown to be one and the same by numerous photo comparisons. 3. Severos Gallegos and Jose B. Montoya's affidavits. (Pat Garrett even stated Billy had blue eyes with hazel hues in them.) Bonus: Brushy knew Pat killed a Mexican with a full face beard and I once found an article from 1881 saying Billy was born in Texas. I will post that when I get the chance. Adding to the eye colour issue - according to statistics on this one site, on estimate only six people out of every 10,000 in America today have central heterochromia, which makes the total less than 200,000. That’s just in America - I can’t say I know the figure globally but going on my own experience of CH, the science that it’s rarely passed on genetically and is more the cause of genetic mutations could potentially strengthen Brushy’s claim exponentially. It’s not something that’s typically documented though so I don’t know how easy that kind of information would be (if at all) to track down from 19th century records? |
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Post by cassandra jane on Aug 5, 2021 20:19:28 GMT -5
Adding to the eye colour issue - according to statistics on this one site, on estimate only six people out of every 10,000 in America today have central heterochromia, which makes the total less than 200,000. That’s just in America - I can’t say I know the figure globally but going on my own experience of CH, the science that it’s rarely passed on genetically and is more the cause of genetic mutations could potentially strengthen Brushy’s claim exponentially. It’s not something that’s typically documented though so I don’t know how easy that kind of information would be (if at all) to track down from 19th century records? I do not know either about records of the eye condition, I just know that in Pat Garrett's original edition of The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid he states that Billy had "blue eyes with hazel hues in them". It would seem that less people would have that condition back then. Absolutely. I have it myself but I don’t know anyone else with it. I regularly get people talking about my eyes but it was only recently that I actually sat down and thought about where it comes from. It’s fascinating reading up on all of the possible medical conditions Billy might have had too. The theorist in me just gets such a rush on the medical research area (not just for Billy). I still need to buy a copy of that book but the idea of reading Garrett’s version again is so mentally draining that I back out every time. |
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Post by RonBk on Aug 5, 2021 23:54:39 GMT -5
Furthermore Brushys hands appear similar to the kids hands. The shape of the thumb is identical. The ears too.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 6, 2021 13:41:15 GMT -5
1. Brushy's account of his life. Specifically, his wording, he knew that Billy had never been declared dead, something many do not realize to this day, mostly casual readers. 2. He has been shown to be one and the same by numerous photo comparisons. 3. Severos Gallegos and Jose B. Montoya's affidavits. (Pat Garrett even stated Billy had blue eyes with hazel hues in them.) Bonus: Brushy knew Pat killed a Mexican with a full face beard and I once found an article from 1881 saying Billy was born in Texas. I will post that when I get the chance. "(Pat Garrett even stated Billy had blue eyes with hazel hues in them.)"
Can you cite the publication and page number where this is found?
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Post by texas truth teller on Aug 17, 2021 22:54:22 GMT -5
"(Pat Garrett even stated Billy had blue eyes with hazel hues in them.)"
Can you cite the publication and page number where this is found?
Yes, but only this once. View AttachmentThat is from The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid by, Pat Garrett and Ash Upson. Originally published 1882 and published by the Floating Press 2009. This information is contained chapter 5 pg. 35. In light of previous correspondence, I would ask that this be the extent of the correspondence. However, here it is. I'm sorry to say that the original edition of "Alias Billy the Kid", University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1955, contains no such description by Pat Garrett. Perhaps the author of the reprint made a few changes. A search of the text for "hazel" showed it was found only in the affidavit of Robert E Lee, and in a footnote about "The Story f the Outlaw", by Emerson Hough, published in 1902 Pat Garrett is not mentioned on page 35. Contents of the original edition were not divided into chapters. Pages 14 though 50, "Brushy's Story"; Pages 59 through 64, "The Tangled Web"; Pages 65 through 75, "Be He Alive or Be He Dead"; Pages 76 through 86, "In Black and White"; Pages 87 through 90, "Epilogue". Appendices A through G are found on pages 91 through 130, followed by the index, pages 133 through 136. The original printing of "Alias Billy the Kid" can be accessed on line, free, at Hathi Trust. Search for "alias billy the kid" on Hathi Trust, and select "Full View". |
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Post by devorerd on Aug 18, 2021 6:42:03 GMT -5
Yes, but only this once. View AttachmentThat is from The Authentic Life of Billy the Kid by, Pat Garrett and Ash Upson. Originally published 1882 and published by the Floating Press 2009. This information is contained chapter 5 pg. 35. In light of previous correspondence, I would ask that this be the extent of the correspondence. However, here it is. I'm sorry to say that the original edition of "Alias Billy the Kid", University of New Mexico Press, copyright 1955, contains no such description by Pat Garrett. Perhaps the author of the reprint made a few changes. A search of the text for "hazel" showed it was found only in the affidavit of Robert E Lee, and in a footnote about "The Story f the Outlaw", by Emerson Hough, published in 1902 Pat Garrett is not mentioned on page 35. Contents of the original edition were not divided into chapters. Pages 14 though 50, "Brushy's Story"; Pages 59 through 64, "The Tangled Web"; Pages 65 through 75, "Be He Alive or Be He Dead"; Pages 76 through 86, "In Black and White"; Pages 87 through 90, "Epilogue". Appendices A through G are found on pages 91 through 130, followed by the index, pages 133 through 136. The original printing of "Alias Billy the Kid" can be accessed on line, free, at Hathi Trust. Search for "alias billy the kid" on Hathi Trust, and select "Full View". TTT, does it really make that much difference if Pat described Billie's eyes anyway? I think we can all agree that he had empirically verified what his eyes looked like at one point in time? After all, were suppose to believe that Garrett killed the kid because he "said so" without any evidence, so adding a description of Pat's take on Billie's eyes doesn't seem below the realm of the possible. |
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Post by DanJohno on Aug 18, 2021 6:49:42 GMT -5
Is it just me or was TTT looking in the wrong book?
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