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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 26, 2020 11:33:43 GMT -5
"Would you not agree that its a good thing if claims of evidence can be verified? "
Does that apply to Brushy? Yaqui Indians, boxing school in Cincinnati, Shetland islands, Argentina, Buffalo Bill, Pawnee Bill, Belle Starr, Texas Ranger, Deputy U S Marshall, Rough Riders, etc.
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Post by RonBk on Nov 26, 2020 16:22:29 GMT -5
Its nice to see that you want to come and rescue your friend from losing a score for your team here TTT, but seriously is that all you got? Just changing the subject by answering with a question that distorts the debate doesnt help your team much.
Anyhow, to answer your question, yes I think that would apply to most of the Brushy-evidence, in various degrees of course. For instance, photographic comparisons can be reviewed by each participant on the board here and everyone can form their own opinion based on what they see when they look at it. I think thats one of the things that make this forum so cool. Its a great debate.
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Post by leeb on Nov 27, 2020 14:51:52 GMT -5
Its nice to see that you want to come and rescue your friend from losing a score for your team here TTT, but seriously is that all you got? Just changing the subject by answering with a question that distorts the debate doesnt help your team much. Anyhow, to answer your question, yes I think that would apply to most of the Brushy-evidence, in various degrees of course. For instance, photographic comparisons can be reviewed by each participant on the board here and everyone can form their own opinion based on what they see when they look at it. I think thats one of the things that make this forum so cool. Its a great debate. I think you'll find TTT is just pointing out brushys ridiculous claims.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 27, 2020 17:07:52 GMT -5
Wanderer,
Your post is thought provoking but I must say your opinions sound very familiar. I have to say I agree with the concept that both sides of the debate have been both right and wrong on various levels. But I question why you say you occupy the middle ground and yet you clearly state that you "think it's a combination of #2 and #4" both of which state "he wasn't Billy". You say you occupy the middle ground yet you clearly do not believe Brushy Bill was Billy The Kid. I guess my position is similarly ambiguous "in a way." I support the notion that no one has yet found real proof one way or the other in this debate/research, yet I am quite willing to admit that I believe it is much more likely Brushy "was" Billy The Kid than that he "wasn't".
I do strongly disagree with your assertion in #2 that the holes in his account offer absolute proof. And I disagree with #4 because if Brushy was not really Billy then he almost has to have been the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts born in 1879 so he couldn't have ridden with Billy and would not have likely known anyone who did. One of our former members went to great lengths to try and prove Brushy was a distant relative but even if that were true it doesn't make sense that he would have known so much about the LCW and Billy. So, if #2 and #4 don't make sense, that leaves #1 and #3.
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Post by chivato88 on Nov 27, 2020 17:56:20 GMT -5
Wanderer, Your post is thought provoking but I must say your opinions sound very familiar. I have to say I agree with the concept that both sides of the debate have been both right and wrong on various levels. But I question why you say you occupy the middle ground and yet you clearly state that you "think it's a combination of #2 and #4" both of which state "he wasn't Billy". You say you occupy the middle ground yet you clearly do not believe Brushy Bill was Billy The Kid. I guess my position is similarly ambiguous "in a way." I support the notion that no one has yet found real proof one way or the other in this debate/research, yet I am quite willing to admit that I believe it is much more likely Brushy "was" Billy The Kid than that he "wasn't". I do strongly disagree with your assertion in #2 that the holes in his account offer absolute proof. And I disagree with #4 because if Brushy was not really Billy then he almost has to have been the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts born in 1879 so he couldn't have ridden with Billy and would not have likely known anyone who did. One of our former members went to great lengths to try and prove Brushy was a distant relative but even if that were true it doesn't make sense that he would have known so much about the LCW and Billy. So, if #2 and #4 don't make sense, that leaves #1 and #3. Sounds like Rufus but I might be wrong 😀
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Post by tboor74 on Nov 28, 2020 3:23:05 GMT -5
Has anyone ever got anywhere trying to isolate and validate the life of Oliver P Roberts? Dig solely into his background, forget BTK for a while and simply dig into OPR. There must be some more detail of him, old pics (family, newspapers etc) or more established things that can be proved as fact. Taking the BTK bit out, his post 1881 claims are astonishing BUT, as we've all discusse there is a possibility much of it COULD have happened.
Maybe someone (someone more capable than I) could dig and dig and dig simply trying to chronicle everything about OPR, and as that unfolds there will, at the very least, be more branches to this wonderful tale.
I know some of the members have done unbelievable reearch on various topics, and the genealogy of the Roberts family is there plain and simple.....can anyone pad it out with extra detail, records, pics etc.
Maybe not, but charting Brushy/OPR whatever his story, is intruiging to me.
Thoughts?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 30, 2020 12:58:54 GMT -5
Has anyone ever got anywhere trying to isolate and validate the life of Oliver P Roberts? Dig solely into his background, forget BTK for a while and simply dig into OPR. There must be some more detail of him, old pics (family, newspapers etc) or more established things that can be proved as fact. Taking the BTK bit out, his post 1881 claims are astonishing BUT, as we've all discusse there is a possibility much of it COULD have happened. Maybe someone (someone more capable than I) could dig and dig and dig simply trying to chronicle everything about OPR, and as that unfolds there will, at the very least, be more branches to this wonderful tale. I know some of the members have done unbelievable reearch on various topics, and the genealogy of the Roberts family is there plain and simple.....can anyone pad it out with extra detail, records, pics etc. Maybe not, but charting Brushy/OPR whatever his story, is intruiging to me. Thoughts? tboor74, Oliver P Roberts apparently lived an uneventful life. Born in Bates township, Sebastian County, Arkansas, he is found in 1880, 1900, 1910, 1920, 1930, and 1940 census records. He was a farmer and farm laborer. He married Anna Lee in 1909 and and divorced her in 1910 before marrying Mollie Brown in 1912. He and Moillie moved from Van Zandt County to Little River County, Arkansas, where he registered for the WW1 12 Sep 1918. He bought 80 acres in Sevier County, AR, in February, 1918, and sold it in August, 1918. He buried Mollie in Pauley Cemetery in Little River County, Arkansas, in February, 1919. He moved back to Van Zandt County before 9 January 1920. He married the widow, Lutecia Ballard before 1930. They were living in Hico when she died 22 June 1944. His last wife was Lizzie Allison. There is evidence that he participated in rodeos. A relative interviewed by William A Tunstill said Ollie had retired from the rodeo circuit and lived in Hico. Throughout his story, Brushy talks about horses, breaking horses, riding outlaw horses, rounding up horses, being taught how to ride by the Indians. There is at least one newspaper article about Brushy and rodeos.
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 1, 2020 4:41:01 GMT -5
I'm just intrigued by going down the alternative route, rather than trying to find evidence Brushy was BTK, find evidence he was solely THE O P Roberts. I see totally the documentary evidence and timelines, but people seem to dig up new Billy info all the time after hours and hours of effort and dilligence.....could the same techniques applied to Brushy yield similar new finds? There must be a few things kicking about, see the pic of Frank james that someone has just unearthed when clearing out a relative's house......there MUST be more pics and docs on Brushy or OPR lying waiting to be discovered......
If he was a afrmer or farm labourer there are bound to be pics of him, but in the possession of whom? Are there any records of farms he worked on etc? Ditto the rodeo circuit.
Just a though line, though one I'm not capable of following up
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 3, 2020 4:07:09 GMT -5
Welcome back........I wonder where this is headed.
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 3, 2020 4:08:36 GMT -5
Is it 'welcome back' .... ?
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Post by Kona on Dec 5, 2020 14:32:50 GMT -5
back to the OP cos it was a fun question
1. The scars and bullet wounds on the old mans body.... 26 scars ... and no ww1 or any army service record I mean I get a lack of medical records etc but...... that many scars would kinda add up to some kinda old law man or outlaw ?
2. age difference sorry but anything more than 5 or 10 years most people could start guessing there`s no way your the age you claim to be
3. It`s a nice story it kinda adds up.... I mean Pat messed up shot the wrong guy... or let him escape or who`s to really know..... being born in the 1980`s the whole "young guns" story is pretty fun and well.... really Billy the Kid was never a real person.... you make up an alias "batman" someone else wears the uniform uses the voice and.... you never die... I think the 1st question... 100% can we account for just one BTK during the "life" of BTK or was there more than 1 even 3 or more people.... did the kid die and get replaced maybe not a popular view at all but........ . . that`s what I`m feeling... Part of me things... Pat wanted to shoot whoever in the face, it was a way of doing the job but badly even if it was BTK there would always be some doubt that it was him and the legend would carry on.... also making Pat famous . Tho I will say growing up around criminals even the loud mouth ones... things happen and they can end up shutting up for years and years before they start blabbing again....
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Post by truthofthematter on Dec 19, 2020 19:33:10 GMT -5
Wane Land please contact me. I spoke with you some years back about Time Life Article about my get get GPA Jose Maguil Sedillo Wanderer, Your post is thought provoking but I must say your opinions sound very familiar. I have to say I agree with the concept that both sides of the debate have been both right and wrong on various levels. But I question why you say you occupy the middle ground and yet you clearly state that you "think it's a combination of #2 and #4" both of which state "he wasn't Billy". You say you occupy the middle ground yet you clearly do not believe Brushy Bill was Billy The Kid. I guess my position is similarly ambiguous "in a way." I support the notion that no one has yet found real proof one way or the other in this debate/research, yet I am quite willing to admit that I believe it is much more likely Brushy "was" Billy The Kid than that he "wasn't". I do strongly disagree with your assertion in #2 that the holes in his account offer absolute proof. And I disagree with #4 because if Brushy was not really Billy then he almost has to have been the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts born in 1879 so he couldn't have ridden with Billy and would not have likely known anyone who did. One of our former members went to great lengths to try and prove Brushy was a distant relative but even if that were true it doesn't make sense that he would have known so much about the LCW and Billy. So, if #2 and #4 don't make sense, that leaves #1 and #3.
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Post by devorerd on Jul 27, 2021 15:29:35 GMT -5
I was really looking forward to reading other people's main 3 reasons for believing in Brushy. I'm still keen. 1. Brushy described the McSween house to a 'T' as it existed before it burned down in 1878. 2. Brushy knew that it was a ricocheted bullet that killed Bell, yet another intimate detail that was little known by historians. 3. Brushy described the McSween house to a 'T' as it existed before it burned down in 1878. Bonus: Brushy told us where the real name "Bonney" came from and he also knew that for the murder of Buckshot Roberts that Ira Leonard got the charges thrown out.
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Post by kerry on Jul 28, 2021 12:45:20 GMT -5
Brushy specifically identified the soldiers used by Dolan to win the battle of Lincoln as Buffalo soldiers... A fact largely ignored by history yet not so if you were there - on the business end of their handiwork...losing a battle you should have won.
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Post by kerry on Jul 28, 2021 12:45:41 GMT -5
Brushy specifically identified the soldiers used by Dolan to win the battle of Lincoln as Buffalo soldiers... A fact largely ignored by history yet not so if you were there - on the business end of their handiwork...losing a battle you should have won.
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