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Post by Nik Oak on Apr 28, 2015 14:49:07 GMT -5
I was struck by the lack of reference to Paulita Maxwell in any of Brushy's stories, and just wondered if this was out of respect for Paulita and her family.
In particular I noticed that Brushy's story about the night of the shooting at Maxwell's place sounds a lot more believable if you replace Celsa Gutteriez in his story of going to a dance, with Paulita Maxwell.
It seems to answer a number of the naysayers questions (such as celsa being married to saval and not his sister) and e.g. why Jesus Silva told "Celsa" that Garrett was in town looking for him rather than tell Billy himself. Since Paulita would have commanded considerable respect as the sister of the "Boss".
I don't know a lot about Billy or Brushy, but I thought that I would advance this idea for others more knowledgeable than I to consider.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 28, 2015 17:38:18 GMT -5
Good points for sure. I certainly don't know all the history and such but I've never read anything that explains why there is a prevailing belief that Billy and Paulita were an item. Paulita herself denied it the rest of her life. Therefore it is not a big surprise that Brushy didn't say much about it. In fact, it may be a point that supports Brushy's claim. If he was a fraud, he would have been more likely to mention Paulita, in order to stay in line with what was common belief. Or maybe he stayed away from talking about her because he knew she had denied it. Either way, Brushy was on the same page as Paulita herself.
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Post by Nik Oak on Apr 29, 2015 13:28:57 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments Wayne. I think that I would like to expand further on this scenario.
it seems to me that Brushy "stayed away from talking about her because he knew she had denied it" and my statement "this was out of respect for Paulita and her family" amount to much the same concept. Paulitas denial that her and Billy were an item "for the rest of her life" could surely be explained by her having married someone else and having a child by him. It is not the sort of thing that a lady of that era would want her family, or anyone else, to know. Billy was after all a convicted murderer, escaped prisoner, and the most notorious, most wanted outlaw in the state at one time, and, one way or another, she had to know there was no future in it for her. I'm not sure what you would expect to be written about a romance under these circumstances. However rumors as strong as those about Billy and Paulita are rarely entirely baseless.
If Billy had taken Paulita to the dance, it might explain why Garrett appeared at this time if he had been tipped off by Pete Maxwell. It has been said that Jesus Silva saw Garrett and told Saval Guttierez to warn Billy, because Billy was staying with Saval and Celsa. What if it was Pete Maxwell who Billy was staying with and it was Maxwell who Jesus warned, If Maxwell had tipped off Garrett then he may have said to Jesus that he would go to the dance to warn Billy, but not have actually done it because he secretly wanted Billy arrested if not killed. this would explain why no-one went to the dance to warn Billy.
Brushy also said that Saval Guttierez fetched Celsa (his own wife) for him. This would make much more sense if it was Paulita or even someone else that Saval fetched.
When Billy and friends came back from the dance, and went to Jesus Silvas house, Jesus apparently told "Celsa" that Garrett was looking for Billy instead of telling Billy himself. this too makes more sense if it was Paulita because as I said in my last post Paulita would have commanded considerable respect as the bosses sister. further more he may have thought (wrongly) that Billy had already been warned and be worried about the welfare of the girl whoever she was.
The next we hear of "Celsa" is after the death of Barlow and Brushy's shoot out with the posse, when Celsa came running in to see Brushy and update him on what had happened. the question has been asked "What was Celsa doing in the Maxwell house at midnight", easily explained if it was really Paulita.
The above comments are all based on information given in "Billy The Kid his real name was.." by Jim Johnson pages 59 to 60 inclusive.
Another sentence of interest to me was from "Billy The Kid the lost interviews" by Jameson, page 108, where Brushy said that he woke up while being tended by the old Mexican woman and saw another woman in the room who he recognised as Celsa saying that "She was ANOTHER of Savals sisters named Celsa, who had been a sweetheart of mine one time." What a strange way to describe someone who he has just spent the evening dancing with.
I realize that there are other scenarios that fit the evidence, but would like to see what others think of this one.
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Post by Nik oak on May 1, 2015 8:55:26 GMT -5
I felt uneasy about leaving the above post as a bald statement, and thought that I would like to add to it.
It seems to me that if the above scenario were either fully or partially true then this would enhance Brushy's claim, since it would show that Brushy was showing the same consideration to Paulitas memory as Billy was known to show for his friends and others that he cared about.
This scenario also seems to indicate that Brushy was speaking from memory and at the same time disguising the complete truth rather than the story being total fiction.
The other point is that it would also explain at least some, if not all of the arguments of the doubters who completely disbelieve Brushys story in this respect.
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Post by markmak on May 13, 2015 11:41:07 GMT -5
Wish we had access to the tapes. Where are they anyway? With today's technology, we can't make a digital copy somehow? (of course our modern day technology still can't tell me if an avocado is good for me or not!)
We miss out on more then what was said, we miss out on HOW IT WAS SAID! Was he confident? Emotional? Ever hear the term, "you can hear a smile?" We miss out on the voice influx! What words were really enunciated with enthusiasm, or regret, or pause to even think?
Maybe John Fusco, wrote Young Guns, had a point when when he wrote:
Charley Bowdre: [at the dance] Look at Billy Bonney go.
'Dirty Steve' Stevens: He ain't all there, is he?
Charley Bowdre: He's there enough to be dancing with a pretty girl while we're sitting around pulling our tallywhackers.
Ever talk to someone who killed a man? "They ain't all there" Maybe your family member who was in Military who killed? PTSD? Here is what WIKI says about it.
Posttraumatic stress disorder[note 1] (PTSD) may develop after a person is exposed to one or more traumatic events, such as major stress, sexual assault, terrorism, or other threats on a person's life.[1] The diagnosis may be given when a group of symptoms, such as disturbing recurring flashbacks, avoidance or numbing of memories of the event, and hyperarousal, continue for more than a month after the occurrence of a traumatic event.[1]
I want to hear the tapes and hear the voice, period. We can learn alot about How it is said!!!
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Post by Wayne Land on May 13, 2015 22:07:09 GMT -5
The tapes are said to be in the possession of a descendant of Melinda Allison, Brushy's widow. According to Frederic Bean who claims he reviewed the actual tapes, many of them are falling apart and completely unplayable. Then again, a few years back, a fellow claiming to be the Melinda's descendant showed up on the message board saying he had the tapes and was in the process of having them restored and transferred to CD. He quickly disappeared and then nothing else from him. Probably just yanking our chain, so to speak.
I fully believe the tapes are still out there somewhere and some of them are still playable and I totally agree with your assertions regarding manner of speech, voice inflections, etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 21:04:54 GMT -5
Paulita had a son named Telesfor Jaramillo not long after the 'death' of The Kid, who was supposedly her husband's Jose. It could be, that Brushy (if he was The Kid) never met her again, because her son was actually his son and he didn't want her or the child to be used as leverage for his re-capture, arrest, etc. Considering Telesfor looked an awful lot like Billy The Kid, it makes sense in that regard.  |
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Post by markmak on May 21, 2015 17:56:28 GMT -5
I agree Rufus. This is Paulita and Jose Jaramillo. That boy above does not look like he could be Jose son! He does look like he could be Billy's Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2015 8:27:04 GMT -5
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Post by Wayne Land on May 26, 2015 15:23:09 GMT -5
Unless Billy The Kid returned to New Mexico in 1893 and Paulita Jaramillo had an extra-marital fling with him, Telesfor Jaramillo could not be Billy's son. According to several federal census records, Telesfor was born in 1893. I would also point out that he does not look any more like Brushy than he does Jose Jaramillo. I think sometimes we get an impression of a rather homely looking BTK based on the badly deteriorated tintype photo of an obviously harrowed Billy with a crooked hat, crooked smile and buck teeth and I think this impression is not what Billy really looked like. Paulita Maxwell herself insisted the tintype didn't do Billy justice. I can't tell you who or when but I also remember one researcher found what he believed was proof that the fella in the picture of Telesfor is not Telesfor at all. Bottom line is, we don't know enough about that picture's authenticity to arrive at any conclusions anyway.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 26, 2015 15:29:58 GMT -5
Just found the source I mentioned in the previous post. This quote is taken from the website "About Billy The Kid".
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This photo and story of Telesfor being the possible son of Billy the Kid was first presented in Fred Nolan's book "The West of Billy the Kid." Of course Mr. Nolan is a very respected Billy the Kid historian, so it's hard to doubt his finding, but Fred Nolan retracted this and cleared the misunderstanding:
Fred Nolan stated, "The photograph in my book, which I was told by genealogist Pauline Jaramillo in the late 1980s was Telesfor Jaramillo, has now been confirmed by Bob McCubbin, to be William "Julian" Maxwell, the half-Cheyenne boy adopted by the family who died of smallpox in 1877 at age 20 (the story is in Henry Hoyt's FRONTIER DOCTOR)." Mr. Nolan also commented, "The article "The Private Life of Billy the Kid" appeared in the July 2000 issue of TRUE WEST. They (not I) asked on the cover featuring the "Telesfor" photo "Is this Billy the Kid's son?" whereas in the body text inside the magazine I had stated quite clearly that Telesfor was not born until 1893 which disqualified him as a candidate even before we learned it wasn't a photo of him anyway." So there we have it, from Mr. Nolan himself, that this photo is not the son of Billy the Kid, nor is it even Telesfor, who again, is not the illegitimate son Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 26, 2015 15:36:02 GMT -5
So, the guy in the photo was actually a year or two "older" than Billy himself. Does inspire me to try and learn a bit more about William "Julian" Maxwell. I'd like to confirm the accuracy of his death being 1877, as opposed to 1881.
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Post by MissyS on May 26, 2015 20:57:32 GMT -5
I believe Paulita's brother-in-law was named Telesfor Jaramillo also. Paulita said in an interview that Billy The Kid saved her future brother-in-law Telesfor Jaramillo's life, Chavez Y Chavez was gonna shoot him over Chavez's claim of being his cousin, Telesfor was drunk and his mother or sister begged Chavez to wait till he's sober so he can defend himself, Chavez said "no" and Billy The Kid talked him out of it, Paulita said that was when she first met Billy. that photo could also be Paulita's brother-in-law because his name is also Telesfor maybe the photo got mis-identified as her son Telesfor?
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Post by Durand Crawford on Oct 18, 2015 22:47:09 GMT -5
Love Western History. I have visited Lincoln over twenty years ago now, White Oak, NM, Tascosa, TX, and wandered through the streets and old buildings. I have only read some of the Brushy Roberts material you mention in this blog. So I am enjoying all the discussions that are posted.
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Post by Lost tapes on Nov 25, 2015 14:51:50 GMT -5
Where are the tapes of brushey ?is there any way we could hear them ?
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