What did Brushy really say?

[Wayne Land]

There are a number of books that quote Brushy's interviews with William Morrison. There are allegedly tapes of the actual interviews still in existence but very few people have heard them. Brett Hall, author of "The Real Billy The Kid, alias Brushy Bill Roberts" told historian, Dr. Jannay Valdez that he had been given access to the original notebooks, papers and tapes handed down from Morrison to his currently living descendants and that "his", Hall's version of Brushy's comments came directly from those materials. W.C. Jameson, author of "Billy The Kid, Beyond The Grave" claims his associate Frederic Bean was granted access to a trunk once belonging to Brushy and that "he", Bean, had the authentic data. William Morrison's book was written mostly by historian, Sonnichsen, who without a shadow of a doubt, "did" have access to the original recordings and notes.

Yet, Morrison's book and Jameson's book present quite different versions of what Brushy said. Brett Hall's book agrees for the most part with Morrison's book "Alias Billy The Kid".

Let's talk about some of the quotes and misquotes.

[lacowboy]

I have read all three of the books you listed and have often wondered the same thing about Jameson's book. I think Jameson elaborated on the subject matter just for effect. That is the main reason that I take Morrison's book as the bible on Brushy. I still to this day have not been able to get my hands on Valdez's book. He once told me he was going to send me a copy of a rough manuscript that I never received. It may have slipped his mind because it was not long after his sister died that we spoke about it. I would love to get my hands on a copy of that book.

[Wayne Land]

Email your mailing address to me and I'll see if I can get a copy sent to you. I'm not promising it'll be in the next day or so, but I think I can get it sent to you.

[Wayne Land]

It appears to me that much of the stuff we see on the web that misquotes Brushy is very similar to what is reported in Jameson's book. I enjoyed his book very much, but he "is" a sensationalist author, writing about a surviving John Wilkes Booth, treasures, etc. I don't trust him like I do Morrison and Sonnichsen.

[Wayne Land]

Well this is exciting for me to share. W.C. Jameson has released an ebook with detailed description of how Frederic Bean came to borrow the original tapes of Morrison's interviews with Brushy and provides a transcript of those interviews. I'm not trying to sell the book for him, but I'll tell you it is very, very interesting. We now have a third version of what Brushy actually said which seems to be extremely creditable. Here we have no attempt to leave out the stuff that some author felt was not important and it includes Morrison's questions along with Brushy's answers.

Here's a link to the page where you can order the book:

www.billythekid-outlaw.com/blog/blog/040110034452/Historical-CSI-and-Billy-the-Kid.htm

If anyone reads it, please share your impressions here. Thanks

[Wayne Land]

Here are a couple of examples of interest from the ebook release by W.C. Jameson titled "Billy The Kid - The Lost Interviews". Comments to follow:
>>>>>>>>>
J.J. Dolan got a posse together made up of a bunch of cutthroats and outlaws to head out to Tunstall’s ranch for the herd of horses. I was working out at Tunstall’s then with Dick Brewer, Bob Widenmann, John Middleton, and the rest. Tunstall heard about the writ and ordered the four of us to round up the horses so we could take them into town until the case was settled in court.
I think it was on the eighteenth of February that Tunstall picked Dick Brewer, me, and I believe that John Middleton went along with us, with the horses on the drive to town. While we was on our way to Lincoln, a sheriff’s posse headed by Billy Morton rode onto the ranch. They found that we were gone to Lincoln so they started up after us. Some of their boys took the cattle to the Seven Rivers while the rest of them come after us. We had crossed the country and was well up in the mountains when we saw the posse coming. We tried to get Tunstall to ride for it when we saw how big the posse was. They had us outnumbered, but John wouldn’t ride away from it. He didn’t want to leave his herd. He said that they wouldn’t do anything to him but I knew better. We decided to run for it.
Me and Brewer and Widenmann and Middleton rode off a safe distance to watch, leaving Tunstall with the horses. I could tell by the way that posse came galloping up that there was going to be trouble. We sat our horses off in some brush, watching Dolan and
his boys ride up on Tunstall. They formed a circle around him and then they shot Tunstall in cold blood and then drove the horses to Lincoln. We took off when the shooting started, outnumbered like we were. Later on the boys went out and got Tunstall’s body.
None of the Murphy boys was present at the funeral of Tunstall when we buried his body behind the Tunstall store. And it was a good thing for them that they stayed away. Tunstall was a good man. He had been good to me and treated me like a gentleman. I lost the best friend I ever had when they killed him. I swore that day I would make them pay with their lives for this dirty deed.
>>>>>>>>>

Comments:
According to the historical record J.J. Dolan was not with the posse that killed Tunstall. While Morrison's book quotes Brushy as saying simply "We stood off and watched them approach the herd. They killed Tunstall in cold-blood and went on into Lincoln", other sources try to discredit Brushy by quoting his comment "Dolan and his boys rode up on Tunstall. They formed a circle around him and they shot Tunstall in cold blood." It seems based on the new ebook, the Brushy critics were quoting more accurately. But the problem with this is that other very important comments are being left out. Particularly this one: "a sheriff's posse headed by Billy Morton rode onto the ranch".

Now if Brushy specified the posse was headed by Billy Morton, why would he then turn around just a few seconds later and include Dolan as being with them? I now believe the truth of the matter was that Morrison's book was reporting what they knew Brushy meant to say and the others have pulled out only comments that make Brushy look like a fraud. If you read the entire section as now published, it appears obvious to me that Brushy mistakenly chose his words. I think he was holding Dolan responsible for the posse's existence and included him as being present but he very clearly states it was headed by Morton.

Then we get to the business of whether he was present at Tunstall's funeral. Critics quote Brushy as saying "I swore that day at the funeral" when here it is apparent he did not say any such thing. He does say "when we buried him", but that is not necessarily the same thing as saying he was physically at the funeral himself. Brushy was making these comments some 70 years after the events. Memory can play some tricks over that time and especially in the mind of a 90 year old man.

Again, I encourage anyone who is interested to get a copy of the ebook. It is very enjoyable reading.

[Michael]

The so called "coroner's report" says Billy was shot in the left breast, near his heart.

www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/page29.html

Jesus Silva later said in a Clovis Newspaper interview in 1937 that "The bullet from Garrett's .44 Winchester, which he fired almost from a hip position and at short range, struck Billy in the right side of his chest. Strange as it may seem, that wound did not bleed for two hours after he was shot."

www.angelfire.com/nm/boybanditking/page31.html

Why the discrepancy?

[timmerberg]

people say brushy messed up when he said Selman fought with him in the lincoln county war,but when you look it up it there are numerous places that talk about selman being there, not part of billy's gang but still possibly fighting with him, and everything goes with what Brushy said when he talks about Selman on page 24 of alias billy the kid. it all just fits together really well, and is really interesting for whoever want s to take time to look into 'the rustlers' and 'selman's scouts'. i usually try to look at what evidence there is against Brushy and see if there is anything that says otherwise.

[timmerberg]

i remember sort of now, years ago on ancesrty.com that i found a william h. roberts whoese brother and parents matched his story except it didn't say was born 1859. i think maybe it said 1860 or something. there has been some dispute over the year Billy was born and usually it says he might have been younger. Unfortunately, Brushy may have told a few lies or exaggerated things. I recently read in The Outlaw Jesse James that Brushy said he was born in 1961. He also talked about the same scars with a different story than the one he told about battleing it out with P. Garrett on the night of his supposed death. And for anyone worried about him being a complete liar and first claiming that he rode with the jame's gang then you really need to read 'Jesse James "The Outlaw"' by henry j. walker to get the whole story because it matches what he told Morrison in Alias Billy the Kid. Also i hear people say why didn't he ever mention how he got the name Bonney and he did in the Jesse James book

[Wayne Land]

Is that two separate books you refer to? "The Outlaw Jesse James" vs. 'Jesse James "The Outlaw"? I'm trying to locate one or both of them to purchase.

Thanks for contributing your extensive knowledge here. Even though others don't post much, you'll see at the bottom of the home page 30 to 40 people per day are viewing the posts. Nevertheless, I too wish more people would share their questions, and impressions.

[Thain Timmertberg]

'jesse james the outlaw', by henry j. walker, you've got to read it, Brushy says alot in it, that is the whole title i put in quotations. i don't know why this book is rarely mentioned it was published in 1961 and thats only 11 years after brushy and j. frank dalton died, which gives it good crediblity, the author who wrote is the same that both personally interviewed both these guys. most of the brushy stuff is all in one section so you could skip right to it if you wanted. also if you read in the back of Brett Hall's book in the notes he mentions that there was a William Roberts in the calvary unit in cuba, i have personally verified that it is true and that they did ship horses there although some people argue that they didn't. i don't have much time for this stuff anymore and wish i would have wrote down notes of things i have found years ago (coincedences between his last couple months up until his supposed death and brushy's story and poe's, etc. that have never been talked about anywhere so far as i know) but i didn't. if you would like to send me your phone number, send it to [e-mail].

[searcher64]

May 10, 2011 11:34:23 GMT -5 timmerberg said:

people say brushy messed up when he said Selman fought with him in the lincoln county war,but when you look it up it there are numerous places that talk about selman being there, not part of billy's gang but still possibly fighting with him, and everything goes with what Brushy said when he talks about Selman on page 24 of alias billy the kid. it all just fits together really well, and is really interesting for whoever want s to take time to look into 'the rustlers' and 'selman's scouts'. i usually try to look at what evidence there is against Brushy and see if there is anything that says otherwise.

man I gotta start writing down these sources. I was recently posting somewhere re: brushy's story vs. 'history' and on television there was talk of john selman having signed a petition to lew wallace in 1877. if i am reading this correctly, it would be quite an advancement of brushy's credibility, as apparently nobody was aware of this. anything to this aspect of the story?

[nmjames]

searcher64,

I forgot that I didn't answer your question about John Selman. In 1877, John Selman was at Fort Griffin, Texas.
He was a deputy for Shackelford County sheriff John M. Larn. (If you want to read a good book that has to do with John Selman, John Larn and John Poe, get Bravo of the Brazos John Larn of Fort Griffin, Texas by Robert K. DeArment) John Selman was there until June of 1878. He left ahead of a group of Vigilantes and remained in Texas unitl about September 23, 1878 when he showed up in Linocln Co. (Some say Selman didn't show up in Lincoln until after his wife died in 1879) Selman went to Fort Stanton and tried to buy ammo at the Fort. They would not sell him any so he went to Will Hudgens store and tried to get him to buy the ammo. Will would not buy the ammo so Selman and his men trashed his store and assulted his wife. Selman and his men went on a three week trail of havoc. Sam Corbet and others chased the Selman Scouts back to the Seven Rivers area and by October of 1878, Selman was gone out of the area. (I think he went back to Texas in the Fort Davis area.)

Billy had left Lincoln in August and on August 13, 1878 was in Bosque Grande. Sallie Chisum wrote in her diary recorded his arrival and on the same day gave her an "Indian Tobacco Sack. On August 22, Billy gave her two heart candi at Fort Sumner. From there the Coes and Bonney went on to Puerto de Luna and then on to Anton Chico. Frank Coe called a war pow-wow at Anton Chico and the Coe's went to Colorado. Billy and some of the old Regulators went back to Lincoln in late August and raided the Fritz Ranch below Lincoln driving off fifteen horses and 150 head of cattle. Billy they drove them to Tascosa, Texas. About forty miles east of Fort Bascom, they caught up with the Chisum outfit. Sallie Chisum noted in her diary, On the 25 Sept, 1878, Regulators come up with us at Red Riner Springs. It was at Tascoso, Texas on October 24th. 1878 that Billy sold and wrote a bill of sale to Henry F. Hoyt for a horse that had belong to sheriff Brady. In late October, the old regulators broke up for good. Late in November, 1878, Billy and Tom showed back up in Lincoln. So while Selman was in Lincoln, Billy was not there.

Wallace became Gov. in New Mexico in late 1878. I don't know anything about Selman signing a petition to Lew Wallace at anytime and for sure not 1877. I do have a copy of a letter from Wallace to Cpt. Henry Carroll with a list of men he wanted arrested. It is quite a list and at the top of the list is John Slaughter, Andrew Boyle, John Selman, John's brother Tom Selman, the Kid William Bonney is 14th. on the list. The list goes to 36 total men.

This may be what you are talking about.

[riofirefighter76]

So I know I'm a little late to the party but I'm glad I stumbled upon this forum. I was also very glad to see that an in-law(Lucas Speer)'s site has been referenced. I've been out of this conversation for a number of years but always found it very interesting. Who was Billy The Kid? Who was Brushy? Were they the same person? All of these bring up awesome points, and sometimes heated arguments depending on who you talk to. Anyway, I guess this was just my "Hey, I'm new!" post, but I have to say I'm very happy to see people still somewhat recently exploring the evidence.

Brandon

[Wayne Land]

Welcome riofighter76,

I'm always happy to see another person is enjoying the board and I'll be looking forward to any opinions and info you feel like sharing. I like to think this board is quite different from any that came before it. Primarily because I've promised never, ever, to harass, discourage, or insult and I think our posters have followed suit. I encourage vigorous debate and if anyone does post anything that is abusive I will caution them and possibly even delete individual posts that contain abusive remarks but I will never "ban" anyone from the site who is here legitimately.

Again, welcome.