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Post by CP on Aug 30, 2021 19:39:19 GMT -5
Good point;Wayne, all Geneva Pittmon would have known was that she had an "Uncle Oliver" when in fact he was William Henry Roberts. I am sure he was fine with being known as Oliver Roberts, it was an alias that worked for a long time. People need to consider also that Brushy didn't really share anything until he was approached by Morrison. I know it's not "proof" exactly, but, I read how emotional he became when telling Morrison he was tired of having to hide and wanted to die a free man, and there was mention of him visiting New Mexico in the '40's and finding out Yginio Salazaar had passed away, Brushy broke down and cried. Where does that come from if the guy was a fraud? I guess anything is possible, but, I am sold on William Henry Roberts as BTK. The other thing I have to add is I am tired of Pat Garrett's relatives and "fans" holding him up as some sort of perfect example of law enforcement, whether you side with the traditional BTK history or Brushy on this subject does not matter, Garrett was a guy who shot two wrong suspects (yes, wanted men,but, not BTK), lost BTK while technically in his custody, and had a grand total of 7 months experience as sheriff at the time he supposedly killed BTK. He had a lot of failures in his life before becoming sheriff, he was not the kind of man that his descendants need to get upset every time his virtue is questioned, Pat was horribly flawed. Now, that being said, I respect him as much as I would respect anyone that lived at that time in that part of the country, it was a rough place, you did what you had to so you could live. Yes, even passing off someone else as Billy, but that is my opinion, I guess. Nice chatting with you, I will definitely visit again.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 30, 2021 19:53:53 GMT -5
Good insights. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by kerry on Aug 30, 2021 21:02:52 GMT -5
Good point;Wayne, all Geneva Pittmon would have known was that she had an "Uncle Oliver" when in fact he was William Henry Roberts. I am sure he was fine with being known as Oliver Roberts, it was an alias that worked for a long time. People need to consider also that Brushy didn't really share anything until he was approached by Morrison. I know it's not "proof" exactly, but, I read how emotional he became when telling Morrison he was tired of having to hide and wanted to die a free man, and there was mention of him visiting New Mexico in the '40's and finding out Yginio Salazaar had passed away, Brushy broke down and cried. Where does that come from if the guy was a fraud? I guess anything is possible, but, I am sold on William Henry Roberts as BTK. The other thing I have to add is I am tired of Pat Garrett's relatives and "fans" holding him up as some sort of perfect example of law enforcement, whether you side with the traditional BTK history or Brushy on this subject does not matter, Garrett was a guy who shot two wrong suspects (yes, wanted men,but, not BTK), lost BTK while technically in his custody, and had a grand total of 7 months experience as sheriff at the time he supposedly killed BTK. He had a lot of failures in his life before becoming sheriff, he was not the kind of man that his descendants need to get upset every time his virtue is questioned, Pat was horribly flawed. Now, that being said, I respect him as much as I would respect anyone that lived at that time in that part of the country, it was a rough place, you did what you had to so you could live. Yes, even passing off someone else as Billy, but that is my opinion, I guess. Nice chatting with you, I will definitely visit again. Pat Garrett was always a man trying to get ahead...he was not into vendentas -but as his reputation declined he tried to resolve the infamous Fountain murders which gripped parts of the nation. Rather than shoot it out with Oliver Lee - Pat withdrew after a deputy was killed...even after the alleged shooting of BTK -Pat went to see his step brother obviously to smooth things out.Who believes a goat farmer with a clean record - would shoot Pat Garrett in the back of the head then turn him over to shoot his dead body in the chest - while the only witness saw nothing ?
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Post by RonBk on Aug 31, 2021 5:34:44 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Killer Jim Miller was somehow related to the Clements family, ttt wrote about this in another thread. Of course that may very well be just a coincidence. But it could also be that the killing of Garrett was an act of revenge over Garretts shooting of "Billy Barlow"?
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Post by kerry on Aug 31, 2021 9:43:42 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Killer Jim Miller was somehow related to the Clements family, ttt wrote about this in another thread. Of course that may very well be just a coincidence. But it could also be that the killing of Garrett was an act of revenge over Garretts shooting of "Billy Barlow"? PG's neighbour's wife was related also and was said to have ordered Pat off their property at gun point when he called concerning Adamson's proposed purchase of land....Adamson drove the waggon and was present when Pat was killed -yet saw nothing.Miller had long been using others to claim self'defence while establishing an alibi for himself...witnesses would refuse to testify and juries to convict -it took the brazen killing of a popular lawman and vigilante citizens to finally take Miller down.One story has Miller part of the negotiations with Pat on the day of his death - another claiming Pat's killing was Miller's biggest contract... The Clement connection was there - whether a connection with John Miller is perhaps random coincidence - Pat would not have known about John Miller and he tried to avoid starting vendettas.
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Post by CP on Aug 31, 2021 16:18:21 GMT -5
I was reading everyone's posts about Garrett, really good info. I knew some of his life after "killing" the kid, but did not know all of these details. With his lackluster law enforcement career and conflicts near the end of his life, not to mention his financial troubles, the guy was a mess. I don't think he was necessarily an evil man, but, maybe not the good guy in the white hat that some try to portray him as. I mean,when you add up every failure up in Pat's life, would killing the wrong guy in 1881 be such a stretch?
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Post by kerry on Aug 31, 2021 22:28:00 GMT -5
I was reading everyone's posts about Garrett, really good info. I knew some of his life after "killing" the kid, but did not know all of these details. With his lackluster law enforcement career and conflicts near the end of his life, not to mention his financial troubles, the guy was a mess. I don't think he was necessarily an evil man, but, maybe not the good guy in the white hat that some try to portray him as. I mean,when you add up every failure up in Pat's life, would killing the wrong guy i n 1881 be such a stretch? PG sought public office about 7 times -the only two in which he was successful -he was effectively appointed sherriff- of Lincoln by Chisum to stop BTK and in Dona Anna county -to bring Oliver Lee to justice for the murder of colonel Fountain and his son.Ironically Pat's sensational murder revived the memory of BTK and their association - enabling their eventual immortalization by Hollywood.
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Post by tboor74 on Sept 1, 2021 1:58:40 GMT -5
I like a nice coincidence, one such point being Oliver Lee's supposed birthplace.....Buffalo Gap, 1865
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Post by kerry on Sept 1, 2021 4:36:39 GMT -5
I like a nice coincidence, one such point being Oliver Lee's supposed birthplace.....Buffalo Gap, 1865 This "Olie" was good with a gun too - he was involved with Adamson and defended by the notorious Albert Fall against the charge of murdering Albert Fountain's son.Fall later defended the man who claimed to have killed Pat Garrett in self-defense...and then there were their political connections and careers.
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Post by tboor74 on Sept 1, 2021 6:56:19 GMT -5
Didn't PG try to shoot Oliver Lee whilst he was asleep? That may be wrong as I haven't looked it back up, just what I remember.
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Post by kerry on Sept 1, 2021 11:34:04 GMT -5
Didn't PG try to shoot Oliver Lee whilst he was asleep? That may be wrong as I haven't looked it back up, just what I remember. Wildy Well was a dawn raid like Stinking Springs -except this time a deputy was killed -Lee claimed that they were attacked without warning and was not held responsible for the deputy's death when brought to justice 8 month's later by another sherriff - during this time Pat was said to have encountered Lee in a saloon amicably without any gun play..
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Post by leeb on Sept 1, 2021 13:33:00 GMT -5
I was reading everyone's posts about Garrett, really good info. I knew some of his life after "killing" the kid, but did not know all of these details. With his lackluster law enforcement career and conflicts near the end of his life, not to mention his financial troubles, the guy was a mess. I don't think he was necessarily an evil man, but, maybe not the good guy in the white hat that some try to portray him as. I mean,when you add up every failure up in Pat's life, would killing the wrong guy in 1881 be such a stretch? Mr Garrett was if nothing more an excellent lawman, some character assassinations on this forum are nothing more than disappointing and disrespectful.
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Post by chivato88 on Sept 1, 2021 13:43:07 GMT -5
I was reading everyone's posts about Garrett, really good info. I knew some of his life after "killing" the kid, but did not know all of these details. With his lackluster law enforcement career and conflicts near the end of his life, not to mention his financial troubles, the guy was a mess. I don't think he was necessarily an evil man, but, maybe not the good guy in the white hat that some try to portray him as. I mean,when you add up every failure up in Pat's life, would killing the wrong guy in 1881 be such a stretch? Mr Garrett was if nothing more an excellent lawman, some character assassinations on this forum are nothing more than disappointing and disrespectful. You need to read more about him, he was not the man you think he is, he was far from excellent... we're not being disrespectful, we're just telling the truth
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Post by leeb on Sept 1, 2021 13:48:36 GMT -5
Mr Garrett was if nothing more an excellent lawman, some character assassinations on this forum are nothing more than disappointing and disrespectful. You need to read more about him, he was not the man you think he is, he was far from excellent... we're not being disrespectful, we're just telling the truth And I think you need to read more about the history rather than fabricated books. You'll surprise yourself..I'm well read thanks
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Post by chivato88 on Sept 1, 2021 15:38:16 GMT -5
You need to read more about him, he was not the man you think he is, he was far from excellent... we're not being disrespectful, we're just telling the truth And I think you need to read more about the history rather than fabricated books. You'll surprise yourself..I'm well read thanks I know way more than you think, Brushy books aint all I read mate, the way you talk about Garrett shows me that you dont know much about him, and how is shooting people from ambush make him an excellent lawman?
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