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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 16, 2016 10:55:02 GMT -5
Tell you what. This thing about Brushy copying Burns' book has been brought up many times. Where Brushy's story matches the book and the book can be proven incorrect then that should count against Brushy. When his story differs from the book and he was more likely correct, that should count a point for Brushy. Events that were described the same by the book and Brushy that were likely accurate should have no bearing. I'll keep a running score and let's see who wins, Brushy or Walter.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 16, 2016 13:17:00 GMT -5
He who makes the rules wins the game.
The death of Billy the Kid in 1881 is historically accepted fact, except for some skeptics. Therefore, Brushy Bill could not be Billy the Kid. The most convincing argument that he was Billy the Kid was his knowledge of events in Lincoln County.
If Brushy’s description of events in Lincoln County closely follows information published in “The Saga of Billy the Kid” in 1926, the claim that Brushy Bill had to be a participant in the Lincoln County war is no longer convincing.
"Events that were described the same by the book and Brushy that were likely accurate should have no bearing."
Events that were described the same by the book and Brushy Bill indicate that Brushy Bill had read “The Saga of Billy the Kid”.
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Post by clydec on Aug 16, 2016 15:35:25 GMT -5
No, the most convincing arguments that he was Billy the kid is that people who knew the kid said that he was and that professional photo analysis twice said that he was the same man! I have a question for you texas truth teller, where are all the pictures of Oliver P Roberts as a child? There must be pictures of him from his birth up till 1910 when brushy took over. Show me a picture of a young Oliver P that matches up to brushy and I will believe you!
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 16, 2016 15:52:25 GMT -5
I am reading Saga of Billy the Kid again. I will list discrepancies as I find them. First one is Burns says the bullet passed through Bell's heart and dug itself into the wall on p.35 and p.245. Brushy said his bullet struck the wall first which is more likely.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 16, 2016 17:58:40 GMT -5
clydec, "Show me a picture of a young Oliver P that matches up to brushy and I will believe you!" Page 13, "Brushy Bill...Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale?"
"No, the most convincing arguments that he was Billy the kid is that people who knew the kid said that he was " And what are the names of the individuals who knew Billy the Kid before July 1881?
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 16, 2016 23:23:29 GMT -5
Jesse Evans and Gallegos and Montoya and the Sheriff that pulled a gun on him in Hico. this is a thread about Saga of Billy the Kid though. I've read it before and now I'm reading it again, Burns was an amazing writer, this might be my second favorite book on Billy. I enjoyed the part where Burns said Jesse Evans was not present at the murder of Tunstall, or he denied it and it might have saved his life. I have read elsewhere that he was present, but if he wasn't or denied it then that would make sense why Brushy didn't kill him. Also in a magazine article that 'Donald Cline' published in his crazy but entertaining book it mentions a newspaper article where Henry Antrim was wearing two guns, because I know some people think Brushy was making that up. I left off reading SAGA where it states he was born in New York which Brushy denied and if he was making up parents he might as well of said he was born in New York, but he didn't. SAGA also says that his background was the frontier unlike McSween who came from east parts- and Brushy's background was the frontier, not New York City as stated in Cline's book and others, which explains how he knew how to ride, rustle, hunt, shoot.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 16, 2016 23:41:34 GMT -5
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 17, 2016 0:33:55 GMT -5
"He who makes the rules wins the game."
Not true Texas "Truth" Teller. All you have to do to win the game is show that Brushy got his information from the book. You can't show that by pointing out the number of times he agreed with the book if those events were likely factually correct. For the sake of this discussion, he could have known those things because he lived them.
On the other hand, if he made statements that agreed with the book that only appear from those two sources and those statements can be shown to be incorrect then it would seem very likely that he did get that info from the book. Before you go off accusing me of rigging the outcome of this, try listing some of those events that are meaningful to the claim he "got his information from the book." I'm confident you can come up with some. I would like to know how many there are compared to the number of things he said that were "different" from the book. If you'd like to keep your own score and compare to mine, you're welcome to do so.
I'll be posting a running total and list of points that I think are meaningful every few days as I have time to go through it all.
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Post by clydec on Aug 17, 2016 6:54:10 GMT -5
There is some disagreement about who it was that told Morrison about Brushy being Billy the kid. Some people believe that it was Jesse Evans, but I am inclined to believe Brett Hall, who stated that it was in fact William Campbell who put Morrison on to Brushy. It was definitely not Frank Dalton.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 17, 2016 9:22:57 GMT -5
Yes, Brett claimed he had personally reviewed Brushy's notebooks and Morrison's notes in which he documented that Campbell had made Morrison promise not to reveal his identity. Thus the mix up between Hines, Evans and Campbell. It all has the ring of truth at least to me. I agree that Hines was probably William Campbell, and not Jesse Evans.
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 17, 2016 12:49:41 GMT -5
"Also, it mentioned in SAGA that he had small hands,"
I've always thought that assertion was based on the comparable size of his hands and wrists. Not that the hands were abnormally small, but rather they were small in comparison with the size of the wrists. In other words, I suspect it was more the large wrists that made the hands look small even though they were not exceptionally small. This being the reason he was able to escape handcuffs.
A fellow who owned the drug store in Hico where Brushy use to visit has passed on and left the drug store to his son. I spoke to the son and he told me Brushy had demonstrated the handcuff escape to his dad. And the scars. I believe him.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 17, 2016 15:51:27 GMT -5
"All you have to do to win the game is show that Brushy got his information from the book."
Not true. Revision of accepted history places the burden of proof on the revisionist. Proof is required that Brushy Bill acquired his knowledge of the Lincoln County war by participation, not from reading books about Billy the Kid.
A little progress, Wayne, but a stalemate is inevitable.
Brushy Bill believers will consider similar descriptions of Lincoln County events by Burns and Brushy Bill as confirmation that Brushy Bill participated in the Lincoln County war.
All others will consider similar descriptions of Lincoln County events by Burns and Brushy Bill as proof that Brushy Bill did not have to be in New Mexico to acquire his knowledge of the Lincoln County war; Brushy Bill read “The Saga of Billy the Kid” during his retirement in Hico, Texas.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 17, 2016 15:57:11 GMT -5
Brushy Bill: said his half aunt Kathrine Bonney took him to Trinidad, Colorado. Burns: said the widowed Kathleen Bonney took her two sons to Colorado where she married a man named Antrim. The little family followed the Santa Fe trail through the little adobe town of Trinidad.
Brushy Bill: Met Jimmy McDaniel, Billy Morton, Frank Baker, and Tom O’Keefe in Mesilla that summer of 1877. Burns: Billy and Jesse joined Billy Morton, Frank Baker, and Jim McDaniels in the summer of 1877 around Mesilla.
Brushy Bill: Left Mesilla in 1877 with Tom O’Keefe, and had a run in with Indians in the Guadalupe Mountains. Burns: Billy set out from Mesilla with Tom O’Keefe, and was attacked by Apaches in the Guadalupe Mountains.
Brushy Bill: Colonel Dudley rode into town with those “nigger’ soldiers. Burns: “Two squadrons of Negro cavalry, with Colonel Dudley in command, came marching into Lincoln.”
Brushy Bill: “He (Colonel Dudley) demanded that that McSween stop the fighting.” Burns: “Colonel Dudley said, in a stentorian voice, ‘Mr. McSween, this firing must end at once!”
Brushy Bill: In the winter of 1879 we got together with Dolan and Evans and agreed to stop fighting with each other. Burns: Jimmy Dolan, Billy Mathews, Bill Campbell, and Jesse Evans made friends with Billy the Kid, Tom O’Folliard, and Charlie Bowdre in February 1879.
Brushy Bill: Dolan and Campbell killed Chapman in cold blood when they came out of the saloon. Burns: Dolan and Campbell, after leaving Juan Patron’s bar, killed Chapman.
Brushy Bill: Brady, Deputy Hindman, and County Clerk Mathews and maybe someone else were coming down the street from Murphy’s store on April 1. Henry Brown, George Middleton, and Fred Wayte were with me behind the adobe wall. Burns: Sheriff Brady, Deputies George Hindman and “Dad” Peppin, and Circuit Court Clerk Billy Matthews gathered in Murphy’s store before walking down the street toward the courthouse. Billy the Kid, Charlie Bowdrie, Tom O’Folliard, Jim French, Frank McNab, and Fred Wayte suddenly straightened up with cocked rifles from behind the adobe wall.
Brushy Bill: While the house was burning, Mrs. McSween begged Dudley to stop the fighting, but he said he did not have the authority to interfere. Burns: Colonel Dudley told Mrs. McSween he had no authority to interfere.
Brushy Bill: Harvey Morris, Samora, Romero, and McSween were killed as they left McSween’s burning home, and Salazar was wounded. Burns: Harvey Morris, Francisco Samora, Vincente Romero, and McSween were killed as they tried to escape the burning house, and that Salazar was wounded and played dead.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 17, 2016 16:14:11 GMT -5
"Some people believe that it was Jesse Evans, but I am inclined to believe Brett Hall, who stated that it was in fact William Campbell who put Morrison on to Brushy. It was definitely not Frank Dalton."
clydec, Did Brett Hall call Morrison and Sonnichsen liars? Page 15 of "Alias Billy the Kid", copyright 2014: "However, another old timer came along who knew all the parties concerned. This was an ancient Missourian named Dalton, who had already startled the country by declaring he was Jesse James."
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 17, 2016 19:58:46 GMT -5
Morrison or Hines had the Texas Department of Corrections send a letter stating that Jesse Evans was released from prison, the letter was addressed to "Joe Hines aka Jesse Evans" so that leaves little room to doubt that Joe Hines was saying he was Evans. It is possible William Campbell was an alias for Evans, and it is also possible that William Campbell was an alias for Jesse James since Special Agent Frank Warner Angel said it was in his official report when investigating New Mexico and the LCW. Gov. Wallace also stated that Jesse James was arrested for the murder of Chapman (although we all know he can't be trusted) which means Jesse would be present and we have always been told that William Campbell was. I think it either happened like this, Joe Hines said where Billy was but didn't want to be the one who got blamed for it so they said Dalton did it, or Dalton did it because Hines wouldn't give Billy up. I think the latter is true and maybe when everyone started calling Dalton a fraud somebody decided that it wasn't Dalton that identified him, it was someone else. Probably William Campbell is Jesse Evans and thats how the mix came to be that Wallace and Angel thought Jesse James was arrested, it was really Jesse Evans.
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