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Post by MissyS on Sept 18, 2014 19:39:13 GMT -5
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Post by 44colt on Sept 27, 2014 8:54:29 GMT -5
In his interview Brushy stated his father was Wild Henry Roberts and Wild Henry's father was Ben Roberts from Nacogdoches who fought with Sam Houston in 1836. In 1833 Sam Houston attended the Convention of 1833 as a representative for Nacogdoches and on March 2, 1836 Houston signed the Texas Declaration of Independence and later that same year after the Mexicans attacked the Alamo organized the 1st Regiment Volunteer Army of Texas. Here is a record signed by Sam Houston that shows he approved payment for Benjamin Roberts on October 18, 1844 for services rendered to the Indian Department. Indian Department, Washington, October 18, 1844, bill for $29.79, Benjamin Roberts, for 794 pounds of beef for the use of Indians @ 3 ½ cents per pound. For use of the Cooshater Ben. Ash and his family, signed by Sam Houston. 2pp. digital.library.shsu.edu/cdm/singleitem/collection/p243coll3/id/2026/rec/12 Further, records show a John S. Roberts in Nacogdoches who was a prominent military and business leader. Stands to reason if there is one Roberts there he may have a brother. www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fro14 Obviously this isn't definitive proof of a Ben Roberts on a military roster but it does show a presence of the Roberts clan in Nacogdoches and also a direct link years later between Ben and Sam Houston. |
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Post by 44colt on Sept 27, 2014 10:41:57 GMT -5
I was playing with photoshop today overlaying the photo of a younger Brushy onto the Billy the Kid Tintype. There is absolutely no way they are not the same person. The eyebrows and eyes match perfectly as does the jawline, etc. In the photo Billy has his head cocked and I believe leaning slightly backwards, jaw and mouth slightly open, and he is squinting. Despite this Brushy's photo lines up almost perfectly. They are the same man guys. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Also, go look at the photo of 14 year old Brushy and focus on the left eye (his right). Then go to the Billy the Kid tintype and look at the left eye (his right). For that matter look at the pictures below and do the same thing. Its the same guy.  Again, look at Brushy's eyebrows. His right one comes over across to the left above the top of his nose like the beginning of a uni-brow just like Billy the Kid. The left one is one smooth arch but the right has a sharp angle, exactly like Billy the Kid's. Also again, his eyes are a dead match. |
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Post by 44colt on Sept 27, 2014 12:15:57 GMT -5
I've uploaded a second photo where I show more views. I erased one line off center straight down the overlaid Brushy photo. The result is a perfect match where Brushy's features merge into Billys and then Billys perfectly merge into Brushys again. Same person. Next I did half face shots left half Billy/ Right half Brushy and then left half Brushy and then Right half Billy.  I don't know how anyone with an open mind can dismiss that these two men are the same person, especially in light of the mountains of other evidence. |
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Post by 44colt on Sept 27, 2014 13:12:02 GMT -5
This restoration done in 2012 looks even more like a young brushy and I don't think the artist is a Brushy apologist.   |
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Post by marchus on Sept 29, 2014 15:15:05 GMT -5
Wow! I haven't posted in awhile but would like to welcome 44Colt to the boards. I also want to thank MissyS and especially Wayne Land for all of there hard work and research-you all have some great posts, very interesting stuff here! I was just reading some of these and I am really hooked now! The sister? Very interesting-the ancestry, rough riders, the horse, The Texas Kid, The Hugo Kid....All great stuff. I am really interested in picking up The lost interviews now. BTW I saw this recently and didn't know if it was posted on here: Check it out! www.chron.com/houston/article/Billy-the-Kid-photo-real-Houston-forensic-artist-5757088.phpHard to say but looks like it is a very good comparison with the tintype. |
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Post by marchus on Sept 29, 2014 15:18:54 GMT -5
Nevermind I see Wayne posted this a little while ago.
The photo looks like a good one but I am always reluctant to believe it right away considering there are so many photos out there that say it is Billy and they turn out to be false.
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Post by searcher64 on Mar 12, 2015 23:08:25 GMT -5
ok, 44colt, you've sent some much-needed impetus brushy's direction, in this teetering battle of the circumstantial cases. i've always felt that the dossier would weight itself on confirming the details of brushy's stated exploits, and you're succesfully working that aspect of things. a fellow awhile back claimed to have the notes of the buffalo gap doctors and other strong evidence, just before going off the map, whereas you've rapidly sent a few buffaloes thru the gap here. commentors such as nmjames have elevated strong circumstancial counter-evidence lately. you have to sort of digest what james is saying but valid considerations appear to form the basis of his approach. conversely, you do a wonderful job of revealing evidence while poignantly explaining its worth, item by item.
i began a commentary on james' points. to me it all cooked down to more circumstantial evidence, albeit strong evidence. a few points of consideration based on your bullets above;
> yes if its true it should be easily demonstrated if not provable. i'll return to this in summation...
> smoking-gun proof and compelling evidence are not the same; i find the whole subject bereft of proof, with or without brushy's claim;
> confirmation of major post-1881 points of brushy's story still won't prove to the greater world that he was billy per se, even while solidifying to you and i there was something there all along;
> genealogical sites may be helpful, but there are many gaps in the knowledge, as evidenced by the continuing discovery of 'lost branches' and the like as revealed by advancing dna testings, dicoveries of unknown family bibles at yardsales, etc.
here in s. oregon its been the discovery of preserved local newspapers in the walls of victorian houses when renovated.
if you do extensive research of your own cousins, you will find that some are easily documentable while others simply are not. in that light, ancestry appears to be of limited help at this time. in many ways, the census record as a whole seems to go against brushy somewhat. but its not nearly conclusive. hinges on whether you believe brushy as to how and why it came to be.
> strong proof is continuously emerging that a wm henry roberts served with the rough riders. the record of name and age, and other details, fit brushy's story. the photos are highly compelling evidence. the now-famous image of the one white face in the sea of buffalo soldiers broke the 'experts' claims, as did their denial of the use of broncbusters. we now know different. sure looks to me to be him. on that note, your images from the wild west show may have merit. and its not something morrison or brushy could have researched handily before the internet era.
> the absence of a family bible, and of other key items, constitutes non-evidence. i understand that the affidavits cannot be physically produced. who were the signors and what was their true connection? i would discount this as evidence especially if one of the signors was named orvis howk or any of his alises.
> anecdotes of key players supporting or denying brushy are generally just that, there's way too much 'no, what he really said was...' to depend on any of it or point to it as evidence.
> youve made an excellent point in bringing out the reality of brushy's mental state over dick brewer. i met a celebrated iwo jima survivor once, in my cab. having recently studied that battle, i readily repeated key elements of the operations there, which brought him to a very animated state for several minutes discussing, after which he uttered breathlessly, 'its your worst nightmare' and became very silent for hours. brushy's reaction reminded me of this. though we only have this in the interviewers' words, its very credible and not something so readily aped by an impostor as described. its a significant 'ringer.' on a lesser note he perfectly described the power billy must have internalized after killing ollinger, as if truly a first person experience.
> i agree with you that brushy's having been photographed readily in various poses and in various aspects supports the story. i believe btk appeared in numerous photos. especially in the plains where novelties were embraced, and in the outlaw culture in which vanity and a romantic objectivity did abound, and opportunity for photographers. and to say outlaws wouldnt have appeared so as to remain anonymous doesnt agree with me. it was a blind spot, similar to telling all on a social network in a false sense of anonymity might do today. and brushy sure looked strongly like a number of these purported photos, absolutely. in a side note, if you ever knew an irish-american-indian you understand the amazing way appearances can change under various conditions, i.e. mood, age, other environmental aspects. especially eye color and wideness, basic face and body shape, and hair color/complexion. so with brushy.
> apparently the number and exact placement of billy's bullet scars is not known, however the numerous scars on brushy are hard to explain otherwise and are generally consistent and support his story.
> ok now, a major aspect of brushy's story should validate if not prove it. to the point: i simply do NOT believe that oakwood has non habeas corpus. to the point that they may even possess the means of hosting a secret examination of the body sometime in the past, which would border on high deception when coupled with the merchandising of brushy as billy, indicating they could have made a contrary determination. simply put, a public examination of the remains of 'hico man' would unquestionably demonstrate whether brushy was aged 70 or 90. 70 would eliminate brushy as btk; were he determined to be 90 then the game is still strongly afoot. why the hiding of hico man's remains?
i have a few brief observative bullet points about the overall case i want to share in another post. see what you all think.
happy hunting
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Post by clifford on Apr 5, 2015 16:11:35 GMT -5
44colt, Those items you found about Cyclone and Hugo Kid , Texas Kid etc.. Is amazing, about W T Waggoner, this man funded a racetrack here in Arlington TX. called " Arlington Downs" it opened I think around 1928 or 29?, in the late 1930's it was closed as a racetrack and was used for rodeos untill the 50's, it was taken down and the site is a historical landmark now, the odds of Brushy Bill aka Hugo Kid had attended the events there or even participated are pretty good, it was close to Fort Worth also, it surely would have attracted him. Billy/ Brushy was known to like horse racing in New Mexico. |
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Post by clifford on Apr 5, 2015 16:11:58 GMT -5
44colt, Those items you found about Cyclone and Hugo Kid , Texas Kid etc.. Is amazing, about W T Waggoner, this man funded a racetrack here in Arlington TX. called " Arlington Downs" it opened I think around 1928 or 29?, in the late 1930's it was closed as a racetrack and was used for rodeos untill the 50's, it was taken down and the site is a historical landmark now, the odds of Brushy Bill aka Hugo Kid had attended the events there or even participated are pretty good, it was close to Fort Worth also, it surely would have attracted him. Billy/ Brushy was known to like horse racing in New Mexico. |
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Post by 44colt on Apr 24, 2015 8:50:49 GMT -5
ok, 44colt, you've sent some much-needed impetus brushy's direction, in this teetering battle of the circumstantial cases. i've always felt that the dossier would weight itself on confirming the details of brushy's stated exploits, and you're succesfully working that aspect of things. a fellow awhile back claimed to have the notes of the buffalo gap doctors and other strong evidence, just before going off the map, whereas you've rapidly sent a few buffaloes thru the gap here. commentors such as nmjames have elevated strong circumstancial counter-evidence lately. you have to sort of digest what james is saying but valid considerations appear to form the basis of his approach. conversely, you do a wonderful job of revealing evidence while poignantly explaining its worth, item by item. i began a commentary on james' points. to me it all cooked down to more circumstantial evidence, albeit strong evidence. a few points of consideration based on your bullets above; > yes if its true it should be easily demonstrated if not provable. i'll return to this in summation... > smoking-gun proof and compelling evidence are not the same; i find the whole subject bereft of proof, with or without brushy's claim; > confirmation of major post-1881 points of brushy's story still won't prove to the greater world that he was billy per se, even while solidifying to you and i there was something there all along; > genealogical sites may be helpful, but there are many gaps in the knowledge, as evidenced by the continuing discovery of 'lost branches' and the like as revealed by advancing dna testings, dicoveries of unknown family bibles at yardsales, etc. here in s. oregon its been the discovery of preserved local newspapers in the walls of victorian houses when renovated. if you do extensive research of your own cousins, you will find that some are easily documentable while others simply are not. in that light, ancestry appears to be of limited help at this time. in many ways, the census record as a whole seems to go against brushy somewhat. but its not nearly conclusive. hinges on whether you believe brushy as to how and why it came to be. > strong proof is continuously emerging that a wm henry roberts served with the rough riders. the record of name and age, and other details, fit brushy's story. the photos are highly compelling evidence. the now-famous image of the one white face in the sea of buffalo soldiers broke the 'experts' claims, as did their denial of the use of broncbusters. we now know different. sure looks to me to be him. on that note, your images from the wild west show may have merit. and its not something morrison or brushy could have researched handily before the internet era. > the absence of a family bible, and of other key items, constitutes non-evidence. i understand that the affidavits cannot be physically produced. who were the signors and what was their true connection? i would discount this as evidence especially if one of the signors was named orvis howk or any of his alises. > anecdotes of key players supporting or denying brushy are generally just that, there's way too much 'no, what he really said was...' to depend on any of it or point to it as evidence. > youve made an excellent point in bringing out the reality of brushy's mental state over dick brewer. i met a celebrated iwo jima survivor once, in my cab. having recently studied that battle, i readily repeated key elements of the operations there, which brought him to a very animated state for several minutes discussing, after which he uttered breathlessly, 'its your worst nightmare' and became very silent for hours. brushy's reaction reminded me of this. though we only have this in the interviewers' words, its very credible and not something so readily aped by an impostor as described. its a significant 'ringer.' on a lesser note he perfectly described the power billy must have internalized after killing ollinger, as if truly a first person experience. > i agree with you that brushy's having been photographed readily in various poses and in various aspects supports the story. i believe btk appeared in numerous photos. especially in the plains where novelties were embraced, and in the outlaw culture in which vanity and a romantic objectivity did abound, and opportunity for photographers. and to say outlaws wouldnt have appeared so as to remain anonymous doesnt agree with me. it was a blind spot, similar to telling all on a social network in a false sense of anonymity might do today. and brushy sure looked strongly like a number of these purported photos, absolutely. in a side note, if you ever knew an irish-american-indian you understand the amazing way appearances can change under various conditions, i.e. mood, age, other environmental aspects. especially eye color and wideness, basic face and body shape, and hair color/complexion. so with brushy. > apparently the number and exact placement of billy's bullet scars is not known, however the numerous scars on brushy are hard to explain otherwise and are generally consistent and support his story. > ok now, a major aspect of brushy's story should validate if not prove it. to the point: i simply do NOT believe that oakwood has non habeas corpus. to the point that they may even possess the means of hosting a secret examination of the body sometime in the past, which would border on high deception when coupled with the merchandising of brushy as billy, indicating they could have made a contrary determination. simply put, a public examination of the remains of 'hico man' would unquestionably demonstrate whether brushy was aged 70 or 90. 70 would eliminate brushy as btk; were he determined to be 90 then the game is still strongly afoot. why the hiding of hico man's remains? i have a few brief observative bullet points about the overall case i want to share in another post. see what you all think. happy hunting Thank you, Searcher 64. I appreciate your comments and I'm glad you found the book helpful. The older I become the less impressed I am with the academic community. Unfortunately far too many experts have no common sense, life experience, or understanding of what they speak about. In many cases their consensus comes down to a very bad version of high school politics with each one caring more about their reputation in the community than the actual facts of history. I wonder how many of them have ever met real people outside of academia and their own social circles. What I mean by this is that I have met a lot of people in the rural south that are honest, hardworking people but that live in poverty. I have also met a lot of timers, even some when I was younger that were born before 1900. The mindset of these people is very different than the majority of people today. Even reading old books doesn't reveal the mindset totally because the average person did not write books. I remember people of that generation saying things like "I don't care what they say, I know what happened" about any given subject. Back then newspapers and academia represented the position of the minority and the average person disregarded most if not all of what they would consider propaganda of their day when it came to certain subjects. Unfortunately, as those people die all that is left in mainstream historical accounts are what was written by the academics and what the average person knew, thought, or believed is lost when they pass.....except what is passed down in the thinking, life, and mannerisms of their descendants which still exist today but are not represented in the academic community. What I'm trying to say is that these types of people don't think and act the way academics portray them and they didn't think or act that way in Billy the Kid's time either. I say all that...which admittedly is a simplistic and somewhat convoluted attempt at a very quick historical perspective....but I say all that to say this. Billy the Kid was a man of his era with some very remarkable skills and above average personality and intelligence, but he was simply a cowboy. Like almost everyone at the time he was focused on the "now". The events of his life were personal matters involving him and his friends. Very little of what was written about him was true. He was simply trying to make a living and win a fight against the people that were fighting him and the people that killed his friends. He would appeal to justice and the law when it suited him but he would also take matters into his own hand when it didn't or when he could. For him to be called a "notorious outlaw" in the papers probably didn't mean anything to him aside from him thinking it unfair. He knew who he was and could for the most part go about his life the same way among his friends in Fort Sumner and elsewhere the same as he always did. He probably saw it as a passing thing. He didn't have the global perspective we have today. Back then you could simply leave town and change your name and it was all over. No big deal, really. The law was local and you could go to Old Mexico or anywhere else and start over. Everyone who was wanted usually did this. Billy would have done it too but he wanted revenge first or, according to Brushy, wanted revenge first before he married and took his girl with him. In any event, it is for this reason that when Brushy Bill Roberts, who is an exact match for Billy physically in every way, including high pitched voice, stature, eyes, face, muscular build, etc.....when he says "they wouldn't leave me alone".....when he cried upon seeing the Lincoln Courthouse where he was days from facing death as young man not more than a teenager....when he got animated about the battles he was in...when he got choked up when he spoke of Dick Brewer.....when he got mad when he spoke of Ollinger...when he was bitter about his court cases....etc. In all of these things he portrays not only matching physical evidence with Billy the Kid but a matching MINDSET of Billy the Kid which is incredibly difficult if not impossible to fake 70 years later. For him to have BOTH his physical characteristics match and the mindset AND surviving witnesses with sworn affidavits and intimate personal knowledge FROM MEMORY of intimate details of history that even the academics have been wrong about for over ONE HUNDRED YEARS then I would say, and forgive me if this is strong, but I would say that anyone who dismisses that out of hand is an idiot.... or has an agenda. Now, clearly there are oddities with Brushy Bill. He probably exaggerated some things. He left a crooked trail. He was afraid of being caught so he destroyed certain notebooks, etc. But out of all of the things PERSONAL to Brushy (not to his supposed modern defenders of which some have invented evidence, etc)...but of the things to him as a man where he may have said he participated in things that he didn't in his days post- Billy the Kid or even certain details when he was Billy the Kid (because he WAS Billy the Kid) - in all of those things he is no less credible because of those errors or omissions than the academic community who was wrong for a hundred years about the white face among the buffalo soldiers as you mentioned, the presence of black soldiers at McSween's house, the jurisdiction of Billy's trials, etc. It is absolute hypocrisy for the "academics" to be forgiven of their blatant lies, errors, or omissions, because they are "unbiased" but yet Brushy is called to account for telling stories privately to William Morrison, friends, families, etc. What if everything we have ever said to friends, family, girls at a bar, etc. were used to prove that we were not who we were and that we were not credible? The standard that is attempted to be applied to Brushy is ridiculous.....so much so it should be ridiculed and dismissed far moreso than what Brushy said TO THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE AND ON RISK OF DEATH! I don't know how a thinking person could be so quick to think that Brushy was just stupid or so eager to be famous he would do this. Its the same narrative that is applied to Billy himself....that he was just a whimsical kid that stumbled in and out of trouble. It is ridiculous. He was a strategist and a very canny man. I think these types of attitudes by Brushy attackers say all we need to know about them. In any event, thanks for your comments. Sorry I wrote another book just now...haha. I enjoy honest dialogue and debate but don't have much patience for the holier than thou so-called academics. I have respect for genuine ones like C.L. Sonnichsen. I'm also very happy that Brushy's story is still being told. I think Brushy deserves it. |
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Post by 44colt on Apr 24, 2015 9:04:06 GMT -5
44colt, Those items you found about Cyclone and Hugo Kid , Texas Kid etc.. Is amazing, about W T Waggoner, this man funded a racetrack here in Arlington TX. called " Arlington Downs" it opened I think around 1928 or 29?, in the late 1930's it was closed as a racetrack and was used for rodeos untill the 50's, it was taken down and the site is a historical landmark now, the odds of Brushy Bill aka Hugo Kid had attended the events there or even participated are pretty good, it was close to Fort Worth also, it surely would have attracted him. Billy/ Brushy was known to like horse racing in New Mexico. Hi Clifford. I totally agree. Its a small world out there and although Brushy is ridiculed for claiming to know the people he did the reality is that this is probably because the people ridiculing him just have never had the same experience. I'm seriously thinking about writing a book about the people I have met over the years because I think its a neat story. God sometimes puts us in situations sometimes that are above our pay grade so to speak and I certainly don't consider myself to be anyone special but yet I've met Oprah's husband, George Bush, Chris Daughtry, and dozens of other people out of my league. The difference is I have photos with all of them and in some cases cell phone numbers. Poor Brushy didn't have that luxury but that doesn't mean he wasn't there or didn't do the things he claimed. What does exist and is discoverable continues to add evidence to his story. |
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 24, 2015 11:18:55 GMT -5
44colt, searcher 64
I want to thank you both so much for your recent posts and please continue to share your amazing insights. Thank you for your amazingly thoughtful approach to the whole thing. What a thrill to sit here and read posts from you gentlemen that are so obviously "not" prejudiced and know that my decision to start this board has helped present such great debate and reason to anyone out there who really wants to find the truth.
That said, regarding the immediately previous post, if I were to tell you that little old me, former school teacher, part time piano salesman and musician has met, not necessarily in this order, opera star Roberta Flack, actress Barbara Hale (from Perry Mason) who's cousin I was employed by, had a photo taken with legendary pianist Roger Williams, visited the home of Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy's, who introduced me to Wendy herself, had dinner with famed trumpeter Bill Chase ("Get It On"), met Boots Randolph ("Yakety Sax"), rubbed elbows with comedian Jerry Lewis, met Joe Dimaggio and almost sold him a piano, Connie Francis' manager, the composer who scored the music for the second Star Trek movie, had a friend who was a friend of Doc Severinsen, and through that connection was offered a touring job with B.J. Thomas and that my fourth great Uncle was Alexander Majors who founded the pony express, and that my cousin found ancestry evidence that I was also related to actor Lee Majors, that I spoke on the phone with Mrs. F Lee Bailey and Mrs. Wayne Huizinga, founder of Blockbuster video, that I was one phone call away from selling a piano to Burt Reynolds and another to Oprah Winfrey, would you maybe think I was pulling your leg. Would you think it unlikely that someone like me, without even trying, would just happen to come into contact with all those celebrities, etc?
Well, I'm not a leg puller. It is all true and if I were to explain exactly how all that happened, in detail, then you would surely understand how it was all possible. Unfortunately with Brushy, we didn't get enough specific detail to support much of what he said happened, and that alone presents a challenge. It is so incredibly rewarding for me to read about the details being uncovered by many of the members of this board. Thank you all. So much. And keep it coming.
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Post by 44colt on Apr 24, 2015 21:58:47 GMT -5
Thanks for providing the venue Wayne!
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Post by markmak on May 11, 2015 21:22:04 GMT -5
SO a guy who claims to be great-great nephew of Brushy Bill Roberts named Roy Haws wrote a book very recently," Brushy Bill Just Another Billy the Kid Tall Tale" He has this picture in it. Thought's for anyone good with matching pics. I believe Brushy to be Billy the Kid. Attachments:
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