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Post by 44colt on Sept 12, 2014 23:34:26 GMT -5
Wayne said: I sure hope the "naysayers" are readin. I am reading and am still a "naysayer". In the article about the Texas Kid they state, he was not handsome, he was youngish, towheaded whose albino eyes seemed hopeleasly weak. To me that's not Billy the Kid. Now for Cyclone, I thought Brushy got that out of the 1941 book The Black Stallion. (I'm not serious). I would have to see where the Hugo Kid rode a horse Cyclone in 1889 in Cheyenne, Wyoming. I have looked for it before but couldn't find it so I hope you can. Now for W.T. Waggoner. I feel anyone from the area where Brushy lived has heard of the Waggoners'. My great-grand-parents are buried in Decatur and I know a little about the Waggoners. If you ever go to Decatur, TX., go by and see the Waggoner House. Brushy had to have stories to tell. Show me where Tom Waggoner gave him the money to ride. Even if he did, that wouldn't make him Billy the Kid from New Mexico. James H. Roberts - I have looked up about every James H. Roberts and had found the one from Kentucky. If I remember, he remained in Kentucky and died there. I have all that filed away at this time. If you find him and his wife was a Mary A. Roberts and everything fits, I'm sure you will let me know. MissyS, I'm going to put this with this post if it's OK. Since you have the book by Mr. Rakocy, go to page 6 to the 1923 story by Frank Coe. Look on page nine and tell Wayne what the last line says. Where did you find your book? I treasure mine as I got it from Sheriff Peppins grandson and he was friends with Mr. Rakocy. He got it from Mr. Rakocy and it has notes in the book. Sadly, the grandson passed away last year. Hi NMJames, If we found an article that said the Hugo Kid rode Cyclone and won $10,000 in a race how would that prove that Brushy was Billy the Kid? He could have easily read the story in the paper and claimed to be the Hugo Kid without actually being him. My point is that it seems like you have decided that Brushy is not Billy the Kid and take some pleasure in taking that position. So far as I know you are not the definitive authority on Billy the Kid and frankly sir I have no interest in convincing you that Brushy is Billy the Kid. I believe that you have set an impossible standard to defend your position. For example, there is far more evidence (signed affidavits, physical characteristics, testimony, etc.) that Brushy was Billy the Kid than there was that Garrett killed Billy the kid. We have what......4 witnesses to the killing and they don't agree? Brushy has 5 affidavits on his side, I believe. In addition, just because something is reported/recorded in the newspaper doesn't make it true any more than Brushy saying something makes it true. The reality is that you have lawmen that served with Brushy confirming that part of his life. You have photographic evidence confirming his "anti horse thief" part of his life, you have national archives proof, genealogical and other proof of his military service and family history confirming numerous other parts of his life, and you have intimate knowledge of events that may be far more accurate than recorded history regarding the Lincoln County War. Why are you so sure that Brushy is a liar? I'm glad you are a student of history and that you enjoy these discussions. However, I don't find your posts particularly helpful. I'm reminded of Livingstone's "Travels and Researches in South Africa" where Dr. Livingstone makes the observation and points out to the natives that just because they criticized something didn't make them superior. They would watch an Englishman fixing a broken wagon wheel, for example, and they would make fun of them...all the while they had no wagons or expertise of their own in making or repairing wagons....but yet they felt that just the fact that they were criticizing someone else put them in a position of superiority to them. Its a human condition I suppose but obviously just because they criticized the guy fixing the wagon doesn't mean that they were superior to him. Frankly, and no offense intented, I'm reminded of this story when I read your posts. Its nice of you to share your opinion, but the fact is that this matter will not be settled based on your say so. Some of us could care less if you acknowledge what we believe is obvious and plain as day to an open minded individual. I hope you keep that in mind when you post in public moving forward. |
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 12, 2014 23:58:25 GMT -5
I can't prove all of what I'm about to suggest but here's what I believe makes sense and what I believe happened.
William Henry Roberts was born to James and Mary Roberts in 1859 in the area known as Buffalo Gap, TX. When James when off to war and Mary died, her half sister Catherine McCarty (maiden name Bonney) whose husband McCarty was also gone to war and possibly already killed, went to retrieve young William and took him with her to Indian Territory. In order to keep him from his real father who was an unseemly character, Catherine called the lad Henry McCarty (his real middle name and her real married name). Eventually settling in Silver City and marrying William Antrim, the lad continued to be called Henry McCarty and later Henry Antrim.
May I interject here that my full name is Kenneth Wayne Land but I've always gone by the middle name, Wayne.
It is important here to note that according to my logic, William Henry Roberts never met Catherine's husband ?? McCarty and felt no connection to him yet he had become very attached to Catherine so much that he really thought of her as his mother. She was, after all, the only mother he really had much memory of as he grew older. When she died, he resumed using his first name and Catherine's maiden name. He had no desire to be known as a McCarty and it was really Catherine that had preferred to call him Henry. He preferred his first name. So he became William H. Bonney. He wanted that to be his real name at that point.
Fast forward. In later life, as he did not want to be discovered as a surviving William H. Bonney he returned to using his birth name of Roberts on occasion. My point earlier was not to suggest Brushy was not aware that he had once been called Henry McCarty but rather that he never considered that his real name and simply had no motivation to mention it in his interviews with Morrison. He did refer to himself as William H. Bonney and even signed a letter that way in the later 1940's because that was a name "he" had chosen to use. "He" preferred that name prior to 1881 and not "Henry McCarty".
As I said, I can't prove this stuff. But I believe fully that this is basically what happened with all the different names.
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Post by sherlockholmes on Sept 13, 2014 1:03:30 GMT -5
NMJames, I DO find your posts to be very helpful!!! Keep on posting, when I get time I will get into the discussion. Read my early posts. Wayne and I battled it out for a month. I even mentioned you by name. Glad you are back. Your analysis is slightly different than mine as Brushy is not the villain in this mess, it is Morrison. Brushy was perfectly happy being one of the James Gang as "Uncle Jessie's" sidekick until Morrison wanted to be known as the man who "FOUND" Billy The Kid.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 13, 2014 2:58:58 GMT -5
nmjames,
I did get confused about what Brushy said of his childhood, I read that when he came back to Texas in 1873 to see his family, his father was remarried and his stepbrother was living there also, that was when he worked on his father's ranch breaking horses etc..in Carrolton Texas, his father was abusive to him, he almost beat him to death with a whip, when he was well enough he ran away to Indian Territory with a herd of cattle, Brushy said on the tapes in the book " The lost Interviews" that thats when he quit using his real name William Henry Roberts because his father warned him he would get the Texas Rangers to bring him back home if he found him, he said he didn't go back to using that name untill 1948 when Morrison found him, he said he used alot of names from some of his relatives, Bonney, Antrim, and Ollie L from a cousin that died in Oklahoma. Also the interviews consisted of 8 reel to reel tapes, they were in very poor condition having been stored in a trunk for decades, the tape on two of the reels were severely disintegrated and unusable falling to the floor in pieces, dust size to fingernail size and no copies were made of them, my point is that these two tapes could have had more about his early life? Who knows?, they could have contain very important information that could have given more proof that Brushy was Billy?, we will never know.
BTW Welcome to the board 44colt, I should have welcomed you sooner, sorry
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 13, 2014 9:36:12 GMT -5
Just catching up on the latest posts. Great debate back and forth and it is much appreciated. Even vigorous debate is encouraged here but let's just remember to be civil. Everyone's opinion is valid from their own point of view. Now, on with the debate.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 13, 2014 12:43:13 GMT -5
Wayne Land,
I appreciate that there is a board that we can all post our different ideas pros and cons, Billy The Kid is an interesting subject no matter how you look at it, many questions get answered and many answers get questioned on the board that's what makes the topic enjoyable, history is something we all share, so I Thank You for the boards, If you do get in touch with the lady from the museum to find out more on Brushy/ Billy's sister would be wonderful, I was going to try and research the census for the sister in Fort Worth around 1881 or after but without a name would be hard, if I used a last name I wouldn't know to look for Antrim, Bonney, Macarty, or Roberts? Also Im trying to dig up anything about an alias name of "William Wright" that Billy The Kid may have used?, I saw this name on a wanted poster for Billy The Kid, also the name "Austin" a name he may have used early as far back as Arizona? Mostly for interest really.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 13, 2014 13:39:30 GMT -5
MissyS,
Yes, absolutely. We should all remember that no matter which side of the fence we stand firmly on or even if we straddle the fence, it is the folks on the other side that make this whole process enjoyable. For me it's never been about convincing anyone. It's about the healthy exchange of ideas that contribute to my knowledge of the subject of Billy The Kid in general. Whether he and Brushy were one and the same or not, he or "they" is (are) a most intriguing individual(s).
Haven't gotten hold of the museum owner in Hamilton just yet. I'll post anything I find out. (with her permission of course)
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Post by MissyS on Sept 13, 2014 15:29:39 GMT -5
Wayne,
I found the name of Billy's supposed sister, in the same book by Rakocy, the newspaper story of the woman who is nameless that overheard the deal with Garrett and Billy, is repeated in the book, I skipped around in the book so I didn't know the same story is in there twice , this one is on pg. 209, it is according to the unnamed official or the rancher? I believe hes one in the same? it's a repeat about Garrett offering him money and Billy shaking hands etc.. but with extra info, it looks like The Times June 29 1926, it has this added " Mrs. Crockett," Billy's sister, lived near Fort Worth for a number of years, she had mourned her brother as dead untill one day, a pen holder, carved and polished, made from the wood of the cross over the grave, was sent her, She rejoiced for she knew her brother was living , she afterwards saw him. For years the rancher sent him money to help him, Billy prospected all over New Mexico, hiding in the hills, never riding anywhere but walking and living in the open, he lives within a days journey of El Paso, a white haired old man, whom everyone regards as queer. He is a musician of rare ability, and when there is a special dance, he plays his violin. Billy will be 66 yrs old Nov. 21st, 1926 his friends say. He claims to have seen Billy In 1901 and again in the past 10 years. Again there is no names of the official/ rancher or the friends names. I remember there's a picture of Billy The Kid in a group that looked like he had a violin? I shortened the story cus alot was the same as the other article. Does the name Crockett make any connections?, of course it's her married name no doubt, I don't understand how seeing a pen holder made from a cross off the grave would make her know her brother is alive? The article could very well be made up to sell papers. The press did stretch the truth alot about Billy back in the day.
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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 13, 2014 17:21:33 GMT -5
I've heard that story before about the pen holder from the cross and all but I don't remember where. I'm sure most just dismiss it as fiction and nonsense, but who knows. It could be true. I suppose you could get from El Paso to Hamilton in a day, depending on your method of transportation. Interesting stuff. Thanks.
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Post by sherlockholmes on Sept 15, 2014 0:40:25 GMT -5
MissyS, I have heard the name Crockett in relation to BTK, like Wayne I want to know all sides of a story to help me shape my opinions in matters of BTK. I am currently reading "Whatever Happened To Billy The Kid" by Helen Airy. There are Crockett's in the book. Great read so far. William Walter Crockett (1848-1913), who lived in New Mexico, then moved to El Paso,Tx. was claimed to be a friend of BTK. He had 2 sisters, but the one you are likely seeking is named Matilda Crockett (1856-1945). Walter had many children, but one in particular stands out and that is William Henry Crockett. Matilda & her sister Eliza Jane Jackson both lived on Erath St., Fort Worth, Texas. I don't know if they lived together, or just on the same street. Your post was music to my ears, as I had not heard the Mrs. Crockett reference before. As far as the pen holder goes there is no reference of it in the book. It does have a section on El Paso Times Herald June 29, 1926 which reads much like what you have written. The last paragraph reads: "The body was taken to a grave already prepared to receive it without the form of a ceremony. That grave was marked by a rude cross, that was to prove to Billy's sister that he was still alive." At first I thought "rude" was a typographical error and they meant to say crude cross, so I Googled "rude cross" and up popped "rude cross stitch". Come to find out it is much like needlepoint. I figure someone in on the hoax basically put a sign(in code) on the grave to let Billy's sister know he was still alive. MissyS you may be on to something. The "sister" reference to BTK has been suspected by some, but never acted upon and may be why Catherine McCarty Antrim's roots have never been properly traced. All that Historians have looked for is a Catherine with two sons. My thoughts are Catherine's daughter stayed in Indiana(the family thought it too dangerous to take a young girl West or maybe she chose to stay), but then she later moved to New Mexico, eventually ending up in Texas. Amazing!!! Thanks
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Post by MissyS on Sept 15, 2014 0:45:47 GMT -5
44colt, Those items you found about Cyclone and Hugo Kid , Texas Kid etc.. Is amazing, about W T Waggoner, this man funded a racetrack here in Arlington TX. called " Arlington Downs" it opened I think around 1928 or 29?, in the late 1930's it was closed as a racetrack and was used for rodeos untill the 50's, it was taken down and the site is a historical landmark now, the odds of Brushy Bill aka Hugo Kid had attended the events there or even participated are pretty good, it was close to Fort Worth also, it surely would have attracted him. Billy/ Brushy was known to like horse racing in New Mexico. |
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Post by sherlockholmes on Sept 15, 2014 1:00:07 GMT -5
MissyS, I will go back later to check on the Crockett's to see if there are any other sister possibilities. That was just a quick analysis.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 15, 2014 1:25:14 GMT -5
MissyS, I have heard the name Crockett in relation to BTK, like Wayne I want to know all sides of a story to help me shape my opinions in matters of BTK. I am currently reading "Whatever Happened To Billy The Kid" by Helen Airy. There are Crockett's in the book. Great read so far. William Walter Crockett (1848-1913), who lived in New Mexico, then moved to El Paso,Tx. was claimed to be a friend of BTK. He had 2 sisters, but the one you are likely seeking is named Matilda Crockett (1856-1945). Walter had many children, but one in particular stands out and that is William Henry Crockett. Matilda & her sister Eliza Jane Jackson both lived on Erath St., Fort Worth, Texas. I don't know if they lived together, or just on the same street. Your post was music to my ears, as I had not heard the Mrs. Crockett reference before. As far as the pen holder goes there is no reference of it in the book. It does have a section on El Paso Times Herald June 29, 1926 which reads much like what you have written. The last paragraph reads: "The body was taken to a grave already prepared to receive it without the form of a ceremony. That grave was marked by a rude cross, that was to prove to Billy's sister that he was still alive." At first I thought "rude" was a typographical error and they meant to say crude cross, so I Googled "rude cross" and up popped "rude cross stitch". Come to find out it is much like needlepoint. I figure someone in on the hoax basically put a sign(in code) on the grave to let Billy's sister know he was still alive. MissyS you may be on to something. The "sister" reference to BTK has been suspected by some, but never acted upon and may be why Catherine McCarty Antrim's roots have never been properly traced. All that Historians have looked for is a Catherine with two sons. My thoughts are Catherine's daughter stayed in Indiana(the family thought it too dangerous to take a young girl West or maybe she chose to stay), but then she later moved to New Mexico, eventually ending up in Texas. Amazing!!! Thanks Hi Sherlockholmes, If Brushy lived in El Paso, I wonder if it was around 1901? Because Pat Garrett was made U S Customs Collector in El Paso Tx . In 1901 , I found it interesting reading about Pat Garrett, and wondered if Brushy and him didn't cross paths from time to time?, he spent alot of time in Texas. About the sister, I read from another source that Billy had a sister that married a miner , so I thought Catherine Bonney must have been mistaken for his sister since she married a miner? But maybe the sister married a miner in Indiana or Kansas and they moved to Fort Worth? Well have to keep searching? |
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Post by sherlockholmes on Sept 16, 2014 18:26:47 GMT -5
MissyS, I had never heard she married a miner. Your analysis is certainly possible.
The 2 Crockett sisters, Matilda & Eliza Jane Jackson (Crockett) have no marriage records and I think 1 or the other was lying about who they were and 1 of them was BTK's sister. Then either took on the Crockett name or married into it. It seems we will always be searching. If Garrett did not kill Billy the Kid, he almost certainly helped the Kid and/or ran into him in El Paso, as all major BTK contenders were definitely there during Garrett's time there.
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Post by MissyS on Sept 16, 2014 21:29:09 GMT -5
Sherlockholmes,
The fact that you found the name Crockett associated with Billy is huge. Wayne posted earlier that he had at one time spoken to a lady at a museum that he thought said she was descended from Brushy/Billy's half sister? this could be an answer?, I don't put alot of stock in the miner part cuz the source I got that from is a nickle novel from 1881. I had posted about it in another thread, it said Billy had a sister that married a miner, and also had a brother named John, It could have been a book for kids and not much detail to facts?, also another angle could be the Truesdales, or even Ma'am Jones, had a daughter that Billy regarded as a sister since he was taken in by them? Ma'am Jones had a son named John, I believe he was shot by Ollinger? The cross stitch is an interesting find. Thanks for researching that, and the Crockett name.
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