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Post by devorerd on Jun 10, 2021 19:17:00 GMT -5
A source in an article interviewed by Jack Hull in 1938, It reads that Frank Lobato wasn’t there, but his mother was, Frank Lobato corroborated Jesus Silva’s accounts of the shooting in that interview. He claimed his mother Marie Lobato told him what happened when he returned to Fort Sumner a short time later. Frank Lobato apparently was at a ranch southwest of Melrose called the Old Pig Pen Ranch, he also mentioned that Billy had spent a month at that Old Pig Pen Ranch also sometime shortly before the shooting, this interview is in the Clovis News July 13 1938 www.newspapers.com/clip/3448349/billy-the-kidjesus-silvafrank/So this is from a poster in this forum: mckinley412: "I'm reading Miguel Otero's jr's The Real Billy the Kid. I forget who asked but it does indeed contain an interview with Lobato saying he was there that night. And Pat said he was there. And Silva says he was there. So I wonder why he would change his story in another interview and say he wasn't. Many people argue that Brushy was wrong about him being there and they use it as a major flaw in his story to discredit him. Sad.".... Found the portion McKinley is referring to, page 157: "Billy took the butcher knife and went over after the meat. He had been gone only a few minutes when Lobato and I were startled by two shots coming from the direction of Pete Maxwell's house. We ran over a quickly as we could finding Pat Garrett and his two deputies by the open door of Pete Maxwell's bedroom". Wayne, this must be what you are referring to?
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Post by RonBk on Jun 11, 2021 2:14:00 GMT -5
I agree with Waynes conclusion. There could be other explanations of course, but the one proposed by Wayne is by far the most likely. We can establish that Lobato changed his story, not only from his own conflicting statements but also from the statements of several other persons including Garrett. The reason is obvious, Lobato was afraid that it would backfire on him that he helped the kid escape, so he started to claim he wasnt there.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 11, 2021 9:12:25 GMT -5
A source in an article interviewed by Jack Hull in 1938, It reads that Frank Lobato wasn’t there, but his mother was, Frank Lobato corroborated Jesus Silva’s accounts of the shooting in that interview. He claimed his mother Marie Lobato told him what happened when he returned to Fort Sumner a short time later. Frank Lobato apparently was at a ranch southwest of Melrose called the Old Pig Pen Ranch, he also mentioned that Billy had spent a month at that Old Pig Pen Ranch also sometime shortly before the shooting, this interview is in the Clovis News July 13 1938 www.newspapers.com/clip/3448349/billy-the-kidjesus-silvafrank/So this is from a poster in this forum: mckinley412: "I'm reading Miguel Otero's jr's The Real Billy the Kid. I forget who asked but it does indeed contain an interview with Lobato saying he was there that night. And Pat said he was there. And Silva says he was there. So I wonder why he would change his story in another interview and say he wasn't. Many people argue that Brushy was wrong about him being there and they use it as a major flaw in his story to discredit him. Sad.".... Found the portion McKinley is referring to, page 157: "Billy took the butcher knife and went over after the meat. He had been gone only a few minutes when Lobato and I were startled by two shots coming from the direction of Pete Maxwell's house. We ran over a quickly as we could finding Pat Garrett and his two deputies by the open door of Pete Maxwell's bedroom". Wayne, this must be what you are referring to? Yes indeed. And thanks for locating that for us. I also question the truth of the story he told later saying he wasn't there because he justified his knowing what happened because his Mother was there and she told him all about it. Right. Sure. Sounds like bull to me!
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Post by MissyS on Jun 13, 2021 18:44:45 GMT -5
It does seem suspicious as to why Frank Lobato would change his story in that roughly two year span of time from the publishing of the book and the interview by Jack Hull. I tried to do some digging of what I could find out about the Pig Pen Ranch that Frank Lobato said in the interview he was working at when the shooting took place, I found one reference that it was established in 1881 so if true it was roughly starting up at the time of the shooting as being an operational ranch according to that source, just what month during 1881 I don’t know? I found it’s roughly 36 miles from Melrose to Fort Sumner, I dug up some other interesting stuff about the Pig Pen Ranch, but some of it is confusing. In that interview Lobato says that the ranch was owned by Pete Maxwell at the time, I did find a reference that Lucien Maxwell owned the land originally, however at some time he sold it to four men who divided it and each one owning a fourth of the property, and running it their own way, and having their own brand, then one of the men; a man named Lonnie Horn later acquired the three other’s shares of the property and established the headquarters of the Pig Pen Ranch, it was at one time called the Horn Ranch. There’s some confusing information, I’m finding one source that mentions Lonnie Horn built his headquarters for that ranch from old timber’s from the old Maxwell home and using the wood also from Pete’s room where the shooting occurred, so it must have been built after 1881. I also read another reference that it was a man named Jack Degraftenreid that built a house on the ranch from the wood and interiors of the Maxwell home and built a replica of Pete’s bedroom where the shooting occurred in it using the used wood this was in 1888-1889, there was also a bullet mark in one of the window casings. Pete Maxwell may not have owned the Pig Pen Ranch at the time of the shooting? It may have been owned by Lonnie Horn at that time?, and Im trying to confirm if the ranch was even called Pig Pen Ranch at that time? it may have been called Horn Ranch or something else? It changed hands several times and used as a Boys Ranch at a more recent time, when it changed hands is unclear, but it does have an interesting history. Billy the Kid hiding out on that ranch for a month before the shooting as Lobato claimed is another question?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2021 22:50:17 GMT -5
If you would like to point out just one inaccuracy and the supporting evidence, that would be great. Or make a longer list that works as well. I misread your previous question. I listed the extensive records that confirm Henry Oliver Roberts and Caroline Dunn were two of Eulaine's great-grandparents.
No credible records have been found that support Brushy's story that his parents were J H Roberts and Mary Adeline Dunn. No credible records have been found that indicate Caroline Dunn had a sister named Mary Adeline Dunn. No credible records have been found that Catherine McCarty and Mary Adeline Dunn were half-sisters. No credible record has been found that indicates Catherine McCarty was ever known as Catherine Bonney.
Brushy's story is fictional, supported by nothing other than his familiarity with events in Lincoln County, and some meaningless sworn affidavits obtained by William V Morrison.
I do not call affidavits by persons such as Severos Gallegos and Jose B. Montoya meaningless. They actually knew Billy the Kid. Just because we cannot find census records of Brushy Bill's parents in the census in Taylor County, Texas in 1860, does not mean that they were not there. I found a Mary A. Dunn on the 1860 census in Kentucky fitting his mother's description and his father in Kentucky, but one may ask why is the son not listed. I have a plausible explanation, they were in the Buffalo Gap or "at the Buffalo Gap" as Brushy said and since their families knew that there was not going to be a census covering that county in Texas they put them down as living with their original families in Kentucky. They did not put down a son, so as it would not look like Mary had an illegitimate child. Now I am not saying that is the way it is. I am just saying that is plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2021 22:54:12 GMT -5
TTT, perhaps you could explain what the evidence consists of in Roys book? According to Wayne there was no evidence presented at all. And I trust Wayne a lot more than some random person who wrote this review without naming a single piece of concrete evidence. Because apparently all of Brett Hall's revelations are bogus but a Roy Haws book review on Amazon? That's truly the nail in the Brushy coffin. Yeah, and that Emilio Estevez and John Fusco, oh my word, how dare they! Crying towel I can't believe Emilio played Brushy! lol.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2021 23:00:10 GMT -5
If Brushy wasn't Billy why do people need to make anti-Brushy websites and write books about him being a liar?. It's the effort of the anti-Brushy squad that makes me trust Brushy more. Why do they desperately try to keep proving something that's already been proven? I don't know why history changing scares people. That is nothing. In 1950 the Santa Fe New Mexican newspaper said that William V. Morrison's affidavit that he obtained from Gallegos was fabrication, because they claimed Gallegos died months earlier, when in fact he did not die until 1960. anotherarticleofnewmexicolyingsayingseveros....pdf (59.8 KB)
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Post by DanJohno on Jun 24, 2021 20:17:33 GMT -5
If Brushy wasn't Billy why do people need to make anti-Brushy websites and write books about him being a liar?. It's the effort of the anti-Brushy squad that makes me trust Brushy more. Why do they desperately try to keep proving something that's already been proven? I don't know why history changing scares people. That is nothing. In 1950 the Santa Fe New Mexican newspaper said that William V. Morrison's affidavit that he obtained from Gallegos was fabrication, because they claimed Gallegos died months earlier, when in fact he did not die until 1960. View AttachmentView AttachmentThanks for posting this and welcome to the forum. Just be prepared to deal with an anti Brushy author slash dedicated genealogist hiding behind an alias who loves to scare new members away.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 12:57:30 GMT -5
Yeah thanks for welcoming me. I am.
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