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Post by cassandra jane on Jun 9, 2021 13:18:26 GMT -5
Maybe I’m being dumb here but, given that the internet didn’t exist back then and information wasn’t available at the drop of a hat - does anyone know for certain that Brushy (who was proclaimed to be a non-literary man) had actually spoken of or heard about writers like Burns? Just saying, I know how hard I find it to keep up to date with things in the news, and I’m AWFUL at knowing where to find information I need - and I have two degrees under my belt. What did Brushy have? information wasn't available at the drop of a hat! Yes indeed it was but it's pointless pointing it out because of the added advantage of blinkers. Everyone here could say the same about your blinkers. This is a massive part of the reason I rarely come to this board anymore - your attitude at the smallest of things being put out there that you don’t like. You want people to be critical of information which supports Brushy’s claim? Then you need to try being critical of information which opposes it too.
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Post by leeb on Jun 9, 2021 13:58:15 GMT -5
You said information wasn't available and I just said it was. No Drama.
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Post by devorerd on Jun 9, 2021 14:03:04 GMT -5
"Saga " was serialized and printed weekly in old brushy's local newspaper. Right, hope is was free! Wasn't Brushy dirt poor, hung around for handouts, but read every BTK book known at the time and memorized every detail to the nines without the assistance of memory enhancing substances. Impressive!
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Post by devorerd on Jun 9, 2021 14:13:49 GMT -5
Sorry, put in the wrong box, but you get the gist.. TTT... So the assumption is that Brushy read this information and simple restated it. Since it was out there, I can go along with that assumption. Here is my question, so If I'm in my 80's or 90's, whatever you believe, and I'm impersonating the Kid with my book knowledge, what is the motive for bringing this out so late in his life. If fame or money is in the equation, once I've read all that I need to know, I'm coming out and trying to reap the rewards? But at the end of his life, that just doesn't compute? I believe Morrison said Brushy was living in a shack. Brushy had participated in some of the hoopla that followed J Frank Dalton's sworn affidavit that he was Jesse Woodson James. DeWitt Travis paid for Brushy's trip to NYC, where he supported Dalton's claim that he was Jesse James. Brushy was also present at Dalton's 102nd birthday at Meramec Caverns, Missouri.
Why did Dalton claim to be Jesse James when he was about 100 years old, or why did Brushy claim to be Btk? No living person knows.
So we believe Morrison here, I'm with you, dirt poor, but has means to procure all the BTK books, daily newspapers and a better than average memory when it comes to BTK facts? Certainly there has to be a motive here? Or think about it this way, why not just live in your old little poor world pretending to be Billie, but when pressed you give in and come out just for the fun of it? Man, TTT that is really hard to logically process.
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Post by cassandra jane on Jun 9, 2021 14:16:10 GMT -5
You said information wasn't available and I just said it was. No Drama. I said it wasn’t available at the drop of a hat, not that it was completely inaccessible 24/7. I’m not getting into semantics with you because it’s pointless. Not everyone reads newspapers; as devorerd has just said Brushy was poor and from my experience of poverty if you’re that poor you’re not going to waste pennies on anything that isn’t a necessity when it’s the difference between a roof over your head and food on the table or vanity tabloids only people fifty years into the future will argue over on a forum you won’t live to hear about let alone use.
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Post by RonBk on Jun 9, 2021 14:19:17 GMT -5
Texas Roy is right about them black troopers being mentioned in Saga, but the thing is that doesnt change the fact that Brushy knew a lot of stuff that was not in Saga. There is another thread about this somewhere. Go check that out.
I also agree with Roy we dont know the reason Brushy came forward with his identity. We have to make a qualified guess. The first thing to take into consideration here is the fact that Brushy did not take the initiativ to come forward, he was persuaded by Morrison.
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Post by leeb on Jun 9, 2021 14:57:26 GMT -5
Brushy's career as colourful as it was should have put plenty in the coffers. But there was no career and on the back of mimicking dalton's claims produced himself as none other than BTK. Unfortunately an odd and old character who actually believed in he's own mind that he was BTK was used for other purposes by people who should have known better.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jun 9, 2021 16:19:28 GMT -5
Texas Roy is right about them black troopers being mentioned in Saga, but the thing is that doesnt change the fact that Brushy knew a lot of stuff that was not in Saga. There is another thread about this somewhere. Go check that out. I also agree with Roy we dont know the reason Brushy came forward with his identity. We have to make a qualified guess. The first thing to take into consideration here is the fact that Brushy did not take the initiativ to come forward, he was persuaded by Morrison. Most of Brushy's information about Lincoln County events and characters was similar to that published in 1926. As you pointed out, Brushy provided additional details that apparently no one else knew. There are two possibilities. 1. Brushy was there, and described things that others did not know about.
2. Brushy had not been in Lincoln County, and the additional details were fabrications.
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Post by tboor74 on Jun 10, 2021 1:55:21 GMT -5
Joe Hines has always intrigued me. Many say he was Jesse Evans, but he was more likely William Campbell, as it was Morgan Campbell who apparently died, leaving Hines his estate. I know it's been discussed on here elsewhere but can't recall to what degree. Hines apparently brought up Brushy, and Morrison claimed it was instead J frank Dalton, in order to keep Hines ID secret. Has this been proved? If it wasn't Dalton who revealed Brushy. how did Hines know him? What about the mysterious MacDaniels? Has anyone ever managed to track down his backstory and where he fits in / fitted in post 1881. All minor details but very interesting in terms of the whole spider's web in my mind.
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2021 2:31:33 GMT -5
I believe William Campbell was an alias name used by Jesse Evans? I don’t know if Evans was his real name as I believe it’s possible that Jesse Evans real name may have been Jesse Robert James, but he was getting mixed up with the real Jesse James and so changed his name to Evans? It’s a mystery, I found a page that may have an explaination to Jesse Evans/Hines and the Campbell name,I don’t know how true it is? www.genealogy.com/forum/general/topics/outlaws/5928/
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Post by MissyS on Jun 10, 2021 3:06:37 GMT -5
It also could answer another question that was discussed on the board awhile back, about the agent Azariah Wild that may have mentioned that Jesse James could have been involved in the counterfeiting ring and the mystery arose as to Jesse Woodson James being in New Mexico in 1881? If Jesse Evans real name was Jesse Robert James then it could be that it was Jesse Evans that was involved in that counterfeiting ring? as his true name could have been confused for the real Missouri outlaw Jesse Woodson James? If Jesse Evans was involved in that counterfeiting ring then it could answer the question that Jesse Evans was really pals with the Kid instead of enemies when he wrote to Billy from the jail to help rescue him?
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Post by tboor74 on Jun 10, 2021 6:36:01 GMT -5
Whoever 'Evans' was, it's interesting that he though Brushy was BTK. Was he another imposter?
Dalton undoubtedly was not Jesse James, although he must have had close links somewhere, but it seems odd that Evans namechecked Brushy, and said ask McDaniels, who unfortunately was never located to confirm anything.
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Post by chivato88 on Jun 10, 2021 6:51:40 GMT -5
Some say that McDaniels was a bad man, weird that Chisum liked him cause it was known that he did not like outlaws. I think Ive read somwhere that he drifted to California and was never heard from again.
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Post by Ramona Barlow on Jul 17, 2021 22:12:49 GMT -5
We have a story in our family I’m not sure how true it is. I’m told my Great Grandfather Harry Thomas Barlow his sister Florence put the Billy the kid gun under his head before they closed his coffin and buried him. One cousin said he was Billy, I also heard my Great Grandfather, he was a friend. One said the women were so ashamed in the family were ashamed. So my dad had books on Billy the kid but he never confirmed. All the Barlow’s in my family are buried in Holdenville,Oklahoma. I never met my Great Grandfather he had already passed away before I was born my grandfather passed he was In his late 70’s in the late 70’s so I wish I could ask questions about what family has shared.
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Post by RonBk on Jul 18, 2021 2:33:39 GMT -5
We have a story in our family I’m not sure how true it is. I’m told my Great Grandfather Harry Thomas Barlow his sister Florence put the Billy the kid gun under his head before they closed his coffin and buried him. One cousin said he was Billy, I also heard my Great Grandfather, he was a friend. One said the women were so ashamed in the family were ashamed. So my dad had books on Billy the kid but he never confirmed. All the Barlow’s in my family are buried in Holdenville,Oklahoma. I never met my Great Grandfather he had already passed away before I was born my grandfather passed he was In his late 70’s in the late 70’s so I wish I could ask questions about what family has shared. So when did Thomas Barlow die? Is it possible he or someone else in your family could have been the "Billy Barlow" who was shot in 1881?
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