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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 11:29:45 GMT -5
Regarding Geneva Pittmon you stated, "the first hand sources she had access to didn't believe he was Billy The Kid." How do you know that is the case? Did any of them make public statements or recorded statements? Maybe they were lying to Geneva in order to help cover for Brushy? Or, maybe they were humoring the real Oliver's mother just as Brushy claimed he had done? Regarding the 1910 census. I think we should also remember that he only did that the one time. If he was already concocting a made up story of being Billy The Kid back in 1910 why didn't he continue to use that Kentucky stuff in the census and why did it take him nearly 40 years to come out with his story, then only when he was approached by Morrison? Doesn't make sense to me. Regarding DNA. I'm afraid I don't really understand the connection to the "Nacodoches Roberts family" that you keep bringing up. Why would there need to be one in order for Brushy's story to be true? Maybe I missed this whole thing somewhere way back in the discussions. #1- The Nacogdoches Roberts family is the family Brushy Bill Roberts claimed was his real family. Benjamin Roberts, who he said was his real grandfather, was from Nacogdoches. If DNA could be done by those living descendants, against the living descendants of Brushy Bill Roberts siblings, we can see once and for all if there was a close relationship or not. #2- Geneva Pittmon IS a second hand source because she had access to first hand sources. Her father was Thomas Roberts, who was Brushy's brother. Now, you can believe they lied to her about his real identity if you wish but the fact remains that she had contact with the people "in the know" and she merely repeated what she was told by Brushy's siblings (or cousins if you believe his story). #2- As to why he didn't continue to use the Kentucky story until much later in life, one can only speculate. I tend to think that maybe there's a possibility that some sort of attempt at getting a pension was occurring. After all, Dalton himself attempted to get a pension by claiming to be a veteran of the Civil War. Maybe, Roberts figured that if he could prove his "father" came from Kentucky and was also an alleged veteran that he could apply for money that was never received. I'm not sure how military pensions, especially in those times, worked for sure but I do know that such pensions did slide over to the widows of veterans. It might be worthwhile to see if Roberts ever attempted to seek a pension, or to see just how many people claimed to be veterans in 1910 in Texas.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2020 12:05:43 GMT -5
Continuation of the previous post...
I just remembered the situation of my 4th great grandfather John H. Defibaugh who died at Andersonville. His spouse ended up dying herself not too long after his own death, and the children ended up in the care of Elijah Hallowell. The military pension went to him to be doled out in keeping of the kids.
Therefore, I can positively prove that pensions can go straight to the children of military veterans, at least in those days. So, could it be in 1910 that Brushy Bill Roberts claimed his parents were from Kentucky and that his father was a Civil War veteran in order to get a pension?
Somebody with access to such records may have to look closely. I may be entirely off base, but the 1910s were tough times economically and after all Dalton attempted to do the same thing, except he claimed to be a veteran (which was denied).
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 28, 2020 16:53:25 GMT -5
Like the 1910 census where Brushy said his parents were both born in Kentucky? Are those the census records you refer to? Like Geneva Pittmon said? She wasn't even born when Brushy took the Oliver Roberts alias. Like Roy Haws said? Please! I read his book and there's more conjecture than anything else. He never met Brushy did he? Did he speak first hand to anyone who had? Why yes, Wayne, information in that that census indicated the parents of Oliver Roberts were born in Kentucky. A competent genealogist knows that information in a single census record may not be correct, and should be verified by other records and sources. Incidentally, Brushy neglected to tell Morrison that he married and divorced Anna Lee, who was his wife in the census record you cited. Brushy also neglected to tell Morrison that one of his aliases was Oliver P Roberts. In chronological order, extant records identify Roberts as Olover, Oliver P., O. P., Oliver P., O. P., Oliver, O. P., O. P., Oliver Pleasant, Olliver P., Oliver, Ollie, Ollie, and Ollie L. His niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, identified him as Oliver P. His name was Oliver Pleasant Roberts. Would you agree that the son of Henry Oliver Roberts was named Oliver Pleasant Roberts? Extant records indicate that Roberts was born about 1878, August 1879, 26 August 1878, about 1880, about 1879, about 1878, about 1870, and 31 December 1868. His niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, said Oliver P. Roberts was born 26 August 1879. He was born 26 August 1879. Would you agree that the son of Henry Oliver Roberts was born 26 August 1879? The birthplace of birth of his father, Henry Oliver Roberts, is Texas in every census record. The birthplace of his mother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, is Arkansas or Texas in every census record All 6 adult siblings of Oliver Roberts consistently reported the birthplace of their parents as Texas or Arkansas in census records. Henry Oliver Roberts was born in Texas, and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson was born in Arkansas. Would you agree that neither of Oliver's parents was born in Kentucky? This is the way that information for census records was gathered.
Census records were the result of enumerator contacting households in his assigned district. The enumerators took notes at the time of the interview, and later transcribed those notes onto census forms. Accuracy of information found in census records was determined by the knowledge and truthfulness of the respondent, and the accuracy of the note taking and transcription by the enumerator.
No fault can be found with any record of William Henry Roberts, for none exists.
Stay safe, wear a mask in public, and protect others.
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Post by Wayne Land on May 29, 2020 12:10:40 GMT -5
You said, "A competent genealogist knows that information in a single census record may not be correct"
That's just the point. "If" Brushy's true identity was Oliver P. Roberts then that 1910 census is "incorrect". So then, "why" is it incorrect? Is it not reasonable to ask whether possibly that is the correct one and all the others are incorrect? No one wants to ask these important questions. I know it's a nuisance to some that I keep bringing it up, but I haven't heard a satisfactory answer "why", that addresses the fact he said it again when telling about his life as BTK.
"Would you agree that the son of Henry Oliver Roberts was born 26 August 1879?" "Would you agree that neither of Oliver's parents was born in Kentucky?"
Sure, as long as we're not insisting that the son of Henry Oliver Roberts grew up to be Brushy Bill.
"This is the way that information for census records was gathered. Census records were the result of enumerator contacting households in his assigned district. The enumerators took notes at the time of the interview, and later transcribed those notes onto census forms. Accuracy of information found in census records was determined by the knowledge and truthfulness of the respondent, and the accuracy of the note taking and transcription by the enumerator."
I am well aware of how census records were collected. I was in the room once every ten years when my mother sat and answered the questions. Never once did she ever claim her parents were born in Kentucky and never once did the census taker write that down by mistake. My mother knew where her parents were born. I know where my parents were born, I suspect you know where your parents were born. And none of us would ever lie about it without an extremely compelling reason. I propose Brushy was telling the truth in 1910 because he had not yet thought about the implications of revealing his parents' true birth place. It had just not occurred to him that it could be used as evidence he was not the real Oliver L. Roberts. That 1910 census was the first one he responded to under the alias of Oliver Roberts. By the time the next one rolled around 10 years later, he had realized he needed to lie about his parents birthplace to help protect his alias. Then in 1948 or so, in speaking with Morrison about his true identity he once again told the truth about where his parents were from. "Kentucky".
We can banter this back and forth forever, I guess, but we both know that Brushy lied about his parents birthplace either in 1910 or in all the other censuses and we both know there has to be a reason for the lie(s).
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 13:01:27 GMT -5
Here's the thing... We can either take Brushy's word for it, and speculate that in 1910 he "slipped up" spilling the beans on accident and from then on out he assumed the identity of Oliver Pleasant Roberts. Or, we can look at OTHER reasons why there was possibly a mistake with the census records. And there are many reasons why that could happen. For example, I have an ancestor named Wilbert Robbins, and on his death record it listed his mother's maiden name was Westfall/Westphal. Come to find out, it was a major mistake because the Westfall's were his next door neighbors. His mother's maiden name was Harmen, sometimes listed as Harmel. So, the only explanation is that the register noted the witnesses as next of kin, and that they had no clue what his mother's name was. If you go to Ancestry and look up reasons why censuses are wrong from time to time, you'll find a myriad of reasons. Most are copying errors, spelling errors, wrong ages, wrong number of people in households, wrong ethnicity. That doesn't quite apply to Brushy. However, if one looks up the real Billy The Kid you'll find some bizarre notations in censuses. Just prior to the shooting at Fort Sumner he was listed as being older than he was, and that his parents came from Missouri. Now, either the head of the household gave the census taker the wrong information purposely, or there was a misunderstanding, or his parents were really from Missouri. So it's not uncommon to see people either lie to hide their tracks, or to see honest mistakes--- for all we know the census taker was told that they came from Missouri originally and assumed Billy The Kid was apart of the family and said he came from Missouri too. I reckon what needs to be looked at is Brushy's wife at the time in 1910. If we are to believe that he was somewhat illiterate, and may not have even been home at the time when the census taker came, it's possible that the census taker denoted his parents came from Kentucky only because maybe her parents came from Kentucky. Far as I know, the Roberts family originally came from Ireland and arrived in America in North Carolina and then migrated to Arkansas and later Texas. Maybe for a brief time they were in Kentucky--- or maybe once upon a time a county used to be bigger than it is presently between Tennessee and North Carolina and was considered Kentucky THEN but is now North Carolina or Tennessee, or maybe they lived in a border town that was also under the jurisdiction of the neighboring state. That doesn't necessarily mean that Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy The Kid, it only means that his father Henry Oliver Roberts did reside briefly in Kentucky or some bordering county of North Carolina and Tennessee which could be claimed as Kentucky. The only reason WHY I even bother bringing the suggestion up is that even today in 2020 you can buy North Carolina property and opt to have a Tennessee address instead, and vice versa. Just because a record is seemingly non-existent doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. That's an argument from silence as well as an argument from ignorance. A lot of records have been destroyed or lost for one reason or another, and many are simply misplaced. Of course Wayne will say that only bolsters his case for Brushy's alleged connection to the unrelated Roberts family from Nacogdoches, but from what we have to go on there's a pretty solid paper trail showing no relationship and that his actual family is pretty well accounted for as well as his general whereabouts from birth to death. www.findagrave.com/memorial/140217090/annie-barnesI suggest people with better skills than me to look up the woman's parents and see where they came from. If there's a connection to Kentucky, then there's your answer why it reads Kentucky on his census. Btw this woman lived until 1983, it's a shame nobody reached out to his ex wives to ask them what they thought of his claims and if they could've connected the dots.
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Post by leeb on May 29, 2020 13:49:48 GMT -5
Talking trash again (there's a theme hear) census records are far from reliable because that was the situation at the time, you can only work with the tools youve got but I personally think TTT is extremely good at in his research of Billy and I'd back him handes down. And by the way, brushy did lie and the reason he did is because he was a Liar!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 29, 2020 15:27:25 GMT -5
“I propose Brushy was telling the truth in 1910 because he had not yet thought about the implications of revealing his parents' true birth place.” Wayne, By implication, you are saying you believe that Brushy Bill married Anna Lee, even though Brushy did not say that he and Anna had married. “You said, "A competent genealogist knows that information in a single census record may not be correct" That's just the point. "If" Brushy's true identity was Oliver P. Roberts then that 1910 census is "incorrect". So then, "why" is it incorrect? Is it not reasonable to ask whether possibly that is the correct one and all the others are incorrect? No one wants to ask these important questions. I know it's a nuisance to some that I keep bringing it up, but I haven't heard a satisfactory answer "why", that addresses the fact he said it again when telling about his life as BTK.” Van Zandt County vital records prove that Oliver Roberts married Anna Lee in 1909 and divorced her in 1910. You fully understand the census procedure. The 1910 census could be correct only if the following were true: Oliver Roberts was Brushy Bill. Brushy Bill was the respondent and said his parents were born in Kentucky. You have assumed, without proof or evidence, that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts. You have assumed that Brushy Bill’s parents were born in Kentucky, based solely on Brushy’s unsubstantiated story. You have assumed that Brushy Bill responded to the enumerator’s questions. Anna, or a neighbor, may have been the respondent if no one was home. No evidence has been found to support Brushy Bill’s story that his parents were born in Kentucky. No evidence has been found that Brushy assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts. No record of William Henry Roberts has been found other than the tourist headstone in the Hamilton County cemetery.
The Kentucky birthplace of Oliver's parents is incorrect in the 1910 census. You assume, without proof, that Brushy provided the information. Someone else could have provided the information. And I'm certain you will not find this answer satisfactory.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 29, 2020 17:52:15 GMT -5
Like the 1910 census where Brushy said his parents were both born in Kentucky? Are those the census records you refer to? Like Geneva Pittmon said? She wasn't even born when Brushy took the Oliver Roberts alias. Like Roy Haws said? Please! I read his book and there's more conjecture than anything else. He never met Brushy did he? Did he speak first hand to anyone who had? You are correct. Roy Haws never met Brushy. Geneva Pittmon was not born at the time that Brushy Bill allegedly assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts. She was about 30 years old when Brushy began pretending to be Billy the Kid. Both Oliver and Geneva were residents of Van Zandt County for several years. If you read Haws book, you might remember that Paul Emerson’s letter revealed that Oliver had lived with Geneva’s parents for several years. Conjecture? That is a one word summary of everything that supports Brushy Bill’s story. You know, and I know, there is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts. That assumption hangs by a slender thread. Brushy provided Morrison with names of 3 of the 4 wives of Oliver Roberts. Skeptics made the leap from the documented name in Van Zandt County vital records, Oliver Roberts, by assuming that it was Brushy Bill using an alias in an attempt to reinforce Brushy's improbable story. The fatal flaw in that theory is the fact that no evidence has been found that Oliver P Roberts. son of Henry Oliver Roberts, died or otherwise vanished about 1911 so Brushy Bill could assume his identity. In fact, both Oliver P Roberts and Henry Oliver Roberts did leave Van Zandt County, and were in Little River County, Arkansas, at some time between 1917 and 1920. The other fatal flaw that has no satisfactory answer is the birth date found on the WWI draft registration card. How did Brushy know that Oliver P Roberts was born 26 August 1879, a date confirmed by his niece and the 1900 census of Hopkins County?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 29, 2020 18:18:15 GMT -5
"You know, and I know, there is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts."
Well we finally agree on something!!! But there is plenty of evidence Brushy "did" assume the identity of Oliver L. Roberts.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2020 19:09:58 GMT -5
"You know, and I know, there is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts." Well we finally agree on something!!! But there is plenty of evidence Brushy "did" assume the identity of Oliver L. Roberts. Wayne... I don't think there's a difference between "Oliver P. Roberts" and "Oliver L. Roberts", especially when you consider that copying errors and misspellings often occur in the censuses. For example... My 4th great grandfather is noted as being not only John H. Defibaugh but also as "John H. Dephenbaugh", "Jno. Deffenbaugh", and bizarrely as "J.J. Davenbrook", so it's not unusual for someone to have a different initial in a census or military record because my own ancestor is proof of that. Brushy Bill Roberts was denoted as "Oliver L. Roberts" but one time. Any other time it was "Oliver P. Roberts" or some abbreviation of his name (ie, Olover). I'm not worried about the one discrepancy. The ONLY thing that seems "off" about the thing is that the signature doesn't quite match known signatures of Brushy Bill Roberts. However, that can be explained by other things than believing it was an assumption of someone else's identity. His wife could've done the signature. The census taker could've done the signature. Maybe Roberts was rushed, stressed, etc and that effected his penmanship. As for Texas's question of why Brushy never mentioned Anna Lee, its self evident that in order for the story to work he'd have to drop the earliest spouse altogether and basically pass her off as being his cousin's wife instead. The bizarre irony for me is that she lived until 1983 and NOBODY ever bothered to interview the woman and see if she had any pictures or letters or documents to prove or disprove that he was Oliver P. Roberts or Oliver L. Roberts, or if the two were one and the same. Somebody ought to reach out to any living descendants of the woman because she did have kids. Maybe somebody has something to say about the matter once and for all. Anyways, Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 29, 2020 23:14:15 GMT -5
"You know, and I know, there is no credible evidence that Brushy Bill assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts." Well we finally agree on something!!! But there is plenty of evidence Brushy "did" assume the identity of Oliver L. Roberts. Records show that Brushy was Oliver Pleasant Roberts when he registered for the 1918 WWi draft; O. P. when he bought and sold land in 1918; and Oliver P. in the 1920 census. However, there are at least 4 occasions when he was identified as O. L. Roberts: his marriage to Melissa E. Allison; his initial cemetery marker with a birth date of 31 December 1868; his death certificate with a birth date of 31 December 1868; and a letter Brushy sent to Uncle Kit Carson signed 'your son', O. L. Roberts. This is an extract from the letter: "We heard from Billie the Kid. He is doing fine and we are looking forhim to come out and visit us in Hico, Texas. He will stay with us for two weeks, then he will go and stay for three years, Dad. I will do my best to get Billie the Kid to come by and see you."
Uncle Kit Carson was Ora A Woodman, born in Illinois. His tales were more incredible than Brushy's. He claimed to be Two Braids, an escaped Apache Captive; Tommy Two Braids Stringfield, survivor of the McMullen County, TX, 1870 massacre; and finally, Uncle Kit Carson (but he was not related to Kit Carson). He told amazing stories about his birth in New Mexico in 1858 to Kit Carson's half-brother William and his wife Maria, about being an Army scout, a cattle drover for John Chisum, a personal friend of Billy the Kid, a participant with Teddy Roosevelt in the Spanish-American War, appearing with Buffalo Bill and Pawnee Bill Wild West shows.
Plenty of evidence?? There is no evidence that O. L. Roberts and Oliver Pleasant Roberts were 2 different men.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 8:05:31 GMT -5
Actually, the Uncle Kit letter has been proven to be a fake. I discussed this previously on the forum. So that's one shred of "evidence" that can be dismissed either way.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 30, 2020 16:06:47 GMT -5
Actually, the Uncle Kit letter has been proven to be a fake. I discussed this previously on the forum. So that's one shred of "evidence" that can be dismissed either way. Rufus, the letter may indeed be fake. I don't know. Maybe it's like Brushy's tale that he was the captain of 106 when he was with Pancho Villa or Carrazana's men in Mexico, or how he and 36 cowboys fought through almost 2,000 soldiers and escaped from Mexico.
His story includes names of several famous historical figures - Waggoner, Chisum, Teddy Roosevelt, Judge Parker, Belle Starr - trying to add a little credibility to his unbelievable tale.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 30, 2020 17:59:57 GMT -5
Talking trash again (there's a theme hear) census records are far from reliable because that was the situation at the time, you can only work with the tools youve got but I personally think TTT is extremely good at in his research of Billy and I'd back him handes down. And by the way, brushy did lie and the reason he did is because he was a Liar! leeb,
It shows how Martha Roberts Heath and Geneva Roberts Pittmon are related to Oliver.
Information in family trees varies from treasure to trash, depending upon the competence and diligence of the owner.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on May 31, 2020 13:20:55 GMT -5
"While I don't believe the bulk of things Brushy claimed, I will say it again that it is interesting how an allegedly illiterate man who never really left Texas somehow knew different things like Tom Waggoner who was a figure of the Johnson County (Wyoming) War. "
Rufus, I share your belief that Brushy's story is not credible.
There is no proof that Brushy was illiterate. The 1910 census indicates Oliver P Roberts could read and write.
Tom Waggoner was manager of the the Waggoner ranch, established by his father, Daniel Waggoner. Brushy claimed that he broke horses for Tom Waggoner. The Waggoner ranch was one of the largest and best known in Texas. It covered thousands of acres in three counties near Wichita Falls. William Thomas "Tom" Waggoner, 18 years old, lived in the household of his father in Wise County, Texas, in the 1870 census. He was 27, married, and lived in Wichita Falls, Texas, in the 1880 census. In 1900, he and his wife and their 3 children lived in Decatur, Wise County, Texas. He died in 1934 (FAG 815166). I don't believe that he was in Johnson County, Wyoming. That Tom Waggoner was lynched in June 1891.
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