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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 7, 2020 1:45:43 GMT -5
Thanks leeb. I don't know if that is actually a scar, but of all the oxidation and black marks all over the original tintype for that one mark to be left on the image on at least 3 different AI filters is a bit much to just ignore and there's a mark on Brushy's nose in the same spot. So how is it we don't see it on other Brushy photos? There are a couple different possibilities. As I already mentioned, the camera resolution maybe if had faded enough that the camera's resolution just didn't pick it up. Or, (it's a stretch for sure but) maybe, the photo at age 28 was a studio portrait and the photographer touched up the photo to hide the blemish. There is a very faint hint of a mark there on a couple of the other photos of Brushy but they're just not obvious enough to say they're definite. So, I'm at a loss for an explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2020 10:12:29 GMT -5
Concerning the nose comparisons, I don't think it's a scar but rather a wrinkle that naturally occurs. Most people actually have a wrinkle line where the cartilage begins and the bone ends. So no "smoking gun" here. That's a common feature in most people.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 20, 2020 16:07:29 GMT -5
Oh I really don't think those are wrinkles. In fact I don't think I've ever seen anyone with a wrinkle at that point on their nose. Do you have any photos you could share that show the wrinkle you're referring to?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 7:41:57 GMT -5
images.app.goo.gl/2LackLDuHqCT6BrL8Over time as people crunch up their nose, rub their nose, etc you can develop a line right where the cartilage begins and the bone ends. Women notice these details more often than men do, because they're more conscious or aware of appearances, but if you Google "wrinkle + nose" you'll see makeup and facial treatments for wrinkles on the nose as well as the face. www.dmcozy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/facew.jpg#4 on the diagram is the wrinkle line I'm referring to. Though I'm sure that some people, as we all know, age faster than others and can develop wrinkles in places that are not on the diagram too.
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Post by Wayne Land on Apr 21, 2020 19:18:41 GMT -5
Interesting, I see your point though several of those photos are taken when the person is intentionally squinting to make the wrinkles show. More importantly though, are you suggesting Billy had such a wrinkle when his face was relaxed and at the age of 20 or so? Sorry Rufus, I just think your chasing an explanation that doesn't quite work.
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Post by Sam Fraser on Apr 27, 2020 14:15:39 GMT -5
Mr Wayne also said on his old website, said that another photo of Brushy from the meeting with Mabry, had a good look at his jaw and that the left side of his mouth has the same lower jaw as Billy the Kid in the tintype.
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Post by MissyS on Apr 27, 2020 14:19:12 GMT -5
While reading up on Chas or Charlie Siringo I found something in his book History of Billy the Kid, he wrote about an adventure Billy had riding with a pal named O'Keefe, together they started for the Pecos river to meet up with Jesse Evans and his gang, but instead of taking the main road, the two cut across the Mescalero Apache Indian Reservation, I won't go into long detail so to make a long story short, after a few days out of El Paso, they ran out of water, they found an Indian trail, they separated and Billy followed it to a canyon which lead him to a cool stream, after filling his canteen Billy started back down the canyon but hadn't gone far when Indians began attacking from a cliff, he had a shootout with the Indians and during the fight many shots were fired at Billy and one bullet struck a rock near his head, and the splinters gave him slight wounds on the face and neck. I thought the incident could possibly have caused the scar on Billy in the photo of him? but it may have occurred too early before the photo was taken for the scar to still be visible? I'm not saying the incident is proof of anything, it was stated Billy suffered "slight wounds" but a bullet splintering a rock near your head I can imaging the impact that could cause, depending how close? and if it really happened also?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 21, 2020 20:28:18 GMT -5
Looks absolutely nothing like wrinkles on any of the photos in question. Not to me. And I strongly disagree that a wrinkle at that point on someone's nose is a common thing. I don't know anyone who has such a wrinkle.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2020 8:32:10 GMT -5
Not really a surprise Wayne, no offense, since you discredited my position months ago that it's not uncommon for people to look very similar or virtually identical to unrelated person's. If something is commonplace, or within reason seems to be more commonplace than thought, you tend to dismiss it. We simply agree to disagree respectfully of course.
I suppose one can ask how likely is it for people to have similar scars, in this case on the nose. Forgoing all possibility of wrinkles, I would say men and women growing up in Texas in the late 19th and early 20th century probably had similar scars because most had similar experiences in jobs and at the homestead.
There is also the possibility that an imposter will make an attempt to look more like the genuine article by purposely scarring themselves. Take for example J. Frank Dalton, Brushy Bill Roberts good friend.
Dalton said, as part of his proof, that he had the same disfigured finger as Jesse James. The trouble was it was the wrong finger. He had heard it was the trigger finger, and either he or someone else purposely injured the finger. In fact, Jesse James' digit in question was his ring finger and it was a birth defect, not an injury.
Considering Brushy Bill Roberts did work for Sweeney for a time, it's possible that he got that tidbit of information from her about the nose scar and purposely injured himself just so he could say he was Billy The Kid.
What one calls evidence for the Brushy Was Billy crowd, in fact, can be used as probable evidence for the Brushy Wasn't Billy crowd. Reasonable doubt? You be the judge. Considering the fact that he was a longtime friend of J. Frank Dalton and clearly would've been privy to Dalton injuring himself to try and pass himself off as Jesse James, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he did it too.
Anyways, I hope you and everyone else on the forum has a good Memorial Day.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊
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Post by leeb on May 25, 2020 9:32:02 GMT -5
Has anyone else noticed that if you disagree with Wayne then your wrong and he isn't?
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Post by Wayne Land on May 25, 2020 10:56:46 GMT -5
Wow! And I suppose "you" never defend your beliefs or positions. "You" just take anything anyone else says and accept it as correct. Isn't some back and forth over specific ideas what makes a message board run? I submit to you that there have been at least 4 other BTK message boards that are no longer running while this one has stood the test of time and continues to grow. A huge part of the reason for that is my promise to allow anyone with any ideas to post and present their beliefs without being harassed or belittled. The only posts I have ever deleted and the only account I've ever blocked were those that wanted to solicit or use the board as means of advertising something having nothing to do with Billy, Brushy, or the old west. If I really had an attitude like you accuse me of, I could easily just delete every post I disagree with and ban every user who's opinion is different from mine. Your assertion is unfair. Oops! Maybe I'm not allowed to point that out. So sorry! Oops, now I'm using sarcasm, Please forgive me as those are the things I don't like and normally try hard to avoid.
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Post by chivato88 on May 25, 2020 11:15:00 GMT -5
Not really a surprise Wayne, no offense, since you discredited my position months ago that it's not uncommon for people to look very similar or virtually identical to unrelated person's. If something is commonplace, or within reason seems to be more commonplace than thought, you tend to dismiss it. We simply agree to disagree respectfully of course. I suppose one can ask how likely is it for people to have similar scars, in this case on the nose. Forgoing all possibility of wrinkles, I would say men and women growing up in Texas in the late 19th and early 20th century probably had similar scars because most had similar experiences in jobs and at the homestead. There is also the possibility that an imposter will make an attempt to look more like the genuine article by purposely scarring themselves. Take for example J. Frank Dalton, Brushy Bill Roberts good friend. Dalton said, as part of his proof, that he had the same disfigured finger as Jesse James. The trouble was it was the wrong finger. He had heard it was the trigger finger, and either he or someone else purposely injured the finger. In fact, Jesse James' digit in question was his ring finger and it was a birth defect, not an injury. Considering Brushy Bill Roberts did work for Sweeney for a time, it's possible that he got that tidbit of information from her about the nose scar and purposely injured himself just so he could say he was Billy The Kid. What one calls evidence for the Brushy Was Billy crowd, in fact, can be used as probable evidence for the Brushy Wasn't Billy crowd. Reasonable doubt? You be the judge. Considering the fact that he was a longtime friend of J. Frank Dalton and clearly would've been privy to Dalton injuring himself to try and pass himself off as Jesse James, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he did it too. Anyways, I hope you and everyone else on the forum has a good Memorial Day. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊 You keep bringing that Brushy worked for Sue McSween, and you go to your own conclusion and I respect it but your gonna need more evidence than that blurry photo of Brushy on the supposed key horse
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Post by Wayne Land on May 25, 2020 12:47:45 GMT -5
Rufus,
May I ask what evidence you have that Dalton injured himself. I'm not saying he was the real Jesse, but it's possible history has it wrong as to which finger was injured. On the other hand, if Dalton injured his own finger in order to prove he was Jesse, don't you think he would have bothered to make sure he was bashing the correct one? I'm not trying to shut you down, BTW. I just think these are legitimate questions.
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Post by leeb on May 25, 2020 14:28:05 GMT -5
Wow! And I suppose "you" never defend your beliefs or positions. "You" just take anything anyone else says and accept it as correct. Isn't some back and forth over specific ideas what makes a message board run? I submit to you that there have been at least 4 other BTK message boards that are no longer running while this one has stood the test of time and continues to grow. A huge part of the reason for that is my promise to allow anyone with any ideas to post and present their beliefs without being harassed or belittled. The only posts I have ever deleted and the only account I've ever blocked were those that wanted to solicit or use the board as means of advertising something having nothing to do with Billy, Brushy, or the old west. If I really had an attitude like you accuse me of, I could easily just delete every post I disagree with and ban every user who's opinion is different from mine. Your assertion is unfair. Oops! Maybe I'm not allowed to point that out. So sorry! Oops, now I'm using sarcasm, Please forgive me as those are the things I don't like and normally try hard to avoid. I don't appreciate the "You " in your post, just another example of your obnoxious opinions. I don't accept anything that anyone tells me but I have had the privilege of speaking with people who have put a lot of time and effort into not only Billy's story but the whole history. Unfortunately I don't think your in that league. Believe it or not but your attitude is extremely patronising to people who don't agree with you (that's a fact, check your replies).Getting on to the last couple of lines in your above post, please leave the SARCASM to those who are good at it. If you would like some lessons in the art of SARCASM just PM Me And I'm Sure I'll be able to fit you in for a crash course
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Post by Wayne Land on May 25, 2020 23:13:11 GMT -5
It is never and has never been my intention to force my opinion on anyone, but I do have the right to express it without being verbally assaulted. Please drop this line of rhetoric and get back to the discussion of BTK and Brushy's claim. Or anything old west related. I do run this board and I do have some authority in this. Please do respect that. I won't belittle you or try to shut you down or censure you so long as you discuss what we're here to discuss and leave the personal assaults out of it. But please know that personal assaults whether against me or any other board member will not be allowed.
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