DNA Study

[cassandra jane]

Feb 16, 2022 10:57:46 GMT -5 tboor74 said:

It does.

Remind me why she thinks this is Billy?

Heck knows. She claims she has other stuff in storage that she’ll get back to me with but Martin is such a leap from his other known aliases which tend to revolve around variations of William or Henry, you know? But she’s a firm believer of the “five children” or something theory.

[cassandra jane]

Speaking of though - I’ve looked everywhere on this site because I know there’s a list of aliases somewhere but I can’t remember where. Can someone point me to it?

[MissyS]

Feb 17, 2022 11:15:00 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

Speaking of though - I’ve looked everywhere on this site because I know there’s a list of aliases somewhere but I can’t remember where. Can someone point me to it?

I found this thread that a list was posted  around the middle post to the end on the last page 


brushybill.proboards.com/thread/372/spanish-american-war-medal?page=3

[cassandra jane]

Feb 17, 2022 12:39:38 GMT -5 MissyS said:

Feb 17, 2022 11:15:00 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

Speaking of though - I’ve looked everywhere on this site because I know there’s a list of aliases somewhere but I can’t remember where. Can someone point me to it?

I found this thread that a list was posted  around the middle post to the end on the last page 


brushybill.proboards.com/thread/372/spanish-american-war-medal?page=3

That’s the one! Lifesaver 👏

[MissyS]

Feb 16, 2022 8:41:47 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

Feb 16, 2022 8:28:15 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

She got back to me with her “evidence”. Of course I can’t read anything but the names because I think it’s in Spanish (or just really bad handwriting). Alias “Martin Garcia” - but can someone tell me what the year is listed at the top of the document(a). I read it to be 1871 but I don’t know if I’m misreading or just going crazy.

Iv read some things about the claims of this person also while surfing for info on Billy and Brushy, and I have to admit it is interesting. It’s possible that Billy could have secretly married and had a family, there’s things being discovered about him not known before. However if the documents are a marriage document of Abrana and Martin Garcia and Martin is supposed to have been Billy the Kid, then according to this site (if this is the same Martin Garcia or Jose Martin Garcia), it’s listing his birthdate as Jan 3, 1848 in La Cuesta NM, that would have made him 23 yrs old in 1871 and 33 yrs old in 1881 too old to have been Billy the Kid. Also if Billy had used an alias name in 1871 and got married then Chauncey Truesdell should have mentioned Billy having a wife in his interviews, with Billy having stayed with the Truesdells after Catherine Antrim died in 1874, that information of Billy marrying seems like something he would have known. 

www.myheritage.com/names/maria_abrana%20garcia

[cassandra jane]

Feb 18, 2022 14:52:29 GMT -5 MissyS said:

Feb 16, 2022 8:41:47 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

Iv read some things about the claims of this person also while surfing for info on Billy and Brushy, and I have to admit it is interesting. It’s possible that Billy could have secretly married and had a family, there’s things being discovered about him not known before. However if the documents are a marriage document of Abrana and Martin Garcia and Martin is supposed to have been Billy the Kid, then according to this site (if this is the same Martin Garcia or Jose Martin Garcia), it’s listing his birthdate as Jan 3, 1848 in La Cuesta NM, that would have made him 23 yrs old in 1871 and 33 yrs old in 1881 too old to have been Billy the Kid. Also if Billy had used an alias name in 1871 and got married then Chauncey Truesdell should have mentioned Billy having a wife in his interviews, with Billy having stayed with the Truesdells after Catherine Antrim died in 1874, that information of Billy marrying seems like something he would have known. 

www.myheritage.com/names/maria_abrana%20garcia

And the one record I found was a birth year of 1857 for Jose I think, and Abrana as having a daughter around the age of 12 in about 1872 though in other records/censuses there was no daughter listed for Jose and Abrana, only sons. But I quite agree - if there was any truth to it, it would have been known at the time by someone or other. I find it hard to believe for all the girlfriends he allegedly had - Sallie, Paulita, Celsa, I heard Nasaria too, Angelita, this Abrana - there were no children conceived at all but Abrana certainly wasn’t the mother going on the records we’ve found re her and the Garcia man.

[cassandra jane]

Just found another certificate that places Abrana in Atrisco in 1880, in the household of Jose Garcia, with her aged 28 with an approximate birth year of 1852. Much older than Billy.

[MissyS]

Feb 18, 2022 16:28:10 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

Just found another certificate that places Abrana in Atrisco in 1880, in the household of Jose Garcia, with her aged 28 with an approximate birth year of 1852. Much older than Billy.

Good discovery!, Atrisco was far from Billy’s known haunts, it’s over 800 miles from Lincoln and 163 miles from Fort Sumner.  I don’t remember reading anything about Billy connected to the town of Atrisco? I’m not saying he wasn’t ever there, but if he had a wife and five kids there I think there would have been more documentation about him in that town. Billy using an alias in 1871 when it was before he was wanted for anything doesn’t make much sense, he didn’t kill Frank Cahill until 1877, and his stealing of the laundry and escape up the chimney was after 1874. By putting an incorrect name on a marriage document it seems it should have made the marriage not legal? I don’t see this sitting well with a bride or her family if they knew the groom’s real name was not what was on the marriage documents because  I believe back in those days courtship and marriage rituals and proper customs were more stricter then. Billy the Kid was said by many to have been a gentleman, and respected the customs of the Mexican people. 

[cassandra jane]

Feb 18, 2022 23:05:46 GMT -5 MissyS said:

Feb 18, 2022 16:28:10 GMT -5 cassandra jane said:

Just found another certificate that places Abrana in Atrisco in 1880, in the household of Jose Garcia, with her aged 28 with an approximate birth year of 1852. Much older than Billy.

Good discovery!, Atrisco was far from Billy’s known haunts, it’s over 800 miles from Lincoln and 163 miles from Fort Sumner.  I don’t remember reading anything about Billy connected to the town of Atrisco? I’m not saying he wasn’t ever there, but if he had a wife and five kids there I think there would have been more documentation about him in that town. Billy using an alias in 1871 when it was before he was wanted for anything doesn’t make much sense, he didn’t kill Frank Cahill until 1877, and his stealing of the laundry and escape up the chimney was after 1874. By putting an incorrect name on a marriage document it seems it should have made the marriage not legal? I don’t see this sitting well with a bride or her family if they knew the groom’s real name was not what was on the marriage documents because  I believe back in those days courtship and marriage rituals and proper customs were more stricter then. Billy the Kid was said by many to have been a gentleman, and respected the customs of the Mexican people. 

Completely agree. I’ll keep looking but I don’t remember ever seeing anyone mention Atrisco in books etc before. Not out of the realm of possibility that he maybe passed through or knew of it but certainly strikes it off the list during the time period she claims was him - I can’t see a boy of eleven or twelve being able to pull that off when his mother was still alive and we know of their whereabouts during the early 1870s.

[MissyS]

I believe it may be possible Billy had known Abrana before the Lincoln County War? What I’m finding is that Abrana’s maiden name was Segura, her Father was Jose Fernando Segura and Mother was Maria Manuela Segura born (Cordova). There was a story about Billy riding to San Elizario Texas to bust his pal Melquiades Segura from the jail. I’m wondering if Melquiades was related to Abrana maybe a brother or relative?, if so then it’s possible Billy knew or met her through his pal Melquiades?, the name could be just a coincidence however. The story was that Billy supposedly rode to San Elizario with a friend named John Mackey and got there with record speed, and Billy posing as a Texas Ranger knocked on the jail door and told the jailer or guard he was there to transport a prisoner, when the jailer or guard opened the door Billy had his pistol pointed at him and forced the jailer or guard to let his pal Melquiades out, this rescue happened around 1876 two years after Catherine died, and a couple years before the Lincoln County War. 

[cassandra jane]

Feb 21, 2022 20:01:12 GMT -5 MissyS said:

I believe it may be possible Billy had known Abrana before the Lincoln County War? What I’m finding is that Abrana’s maiden name was Segura, her Father was Jose Fernando Segura and Mother was Maria Manuela Segura born (Cordova). There was a story about Billy riding to San Elizario Texas to bust his pal Melquiades Segura from the jail. I’m wondering if Melquiades was related to Abrana maybe a brother or relative?, if so then it’s possible Billy knew or met her through his pal Melquiades?, the name could be just a coincidence however. The story was that Billy supposedly rode to San Elizario with a friend named John Mackey and got there with record speed, and Billy posing as a Texas Ranger knocked on the jail door and told the jailer or guard he was there to transport a prisoner, when the jailer or guard opened the door Billy had his pistol pointed at him and forced the jailer or guard to let his pal Melquiades out, this rescue happened around 1876 two years after Catherine died, and a couple years before the Lincoln County War. 

Haven’t found any reference yet to this Melquiades on familysearch- not even close. I’ll try ancestry next but I’m not holding out much hope.

[gladstone]

This can be solved real fast.
Brushy is buried in Hamilton
Get his DNA and then that of either his parents (HO Roberts lineage) or siblings.

you can tell the level of relationship through dna.
this will either seriously help or hurt Brushy case.

if it shows cousin level, his story has serious merit.
if it shows child or sibling level, his story is seriously flawed.

[billybarlowofficial]

Nov 19, 2023 19:02:42 GMT -5 gladstone said:

This can be solved real fast.
Brushy is buried in Hamilton
Get his DNA and then that of either his parents (HO Roberts lineage) or siblings.

you can tell the level of relationship through dna.
this will either seriously help or hurt Brushy case.

if it shows cousin level, his story has serious merit.
if it shows child or sibling level, his story is seriously flawed.

To adequately test Brushy, in my view, you need the DNA of the following individuals:

-Henry Oliver Roberts
-Caroline Dunn
-Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Heath
-Benjamin S. Roberts (Nacogdoches)

Or for that matter a living descendant from each of those 4 individuals. Why? What if (keyword is if) Brushy showed to not be a son of Henry's but a nephew? Or a 1st-3rd cousin? Or a 4th-6th cousin?

Then that'd lend support to the notion that his real father might've been Benjamin S. Roberts of Nacogdoches, or that Benjamin was his real father's brother.

But what if (again keyword is if) Henry was his father but Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Heath wasn't? It'd surely put an end to his Billy The Kid claim for sure, but it'd raise the question Sonnichsen asked, "If he wasn't Billy The Kid then who is he?"

Brushy maintained a Dunn was his mother. Caroline Dunn died years before he was ever even born. But what if she was related to his real mother if (yes, again, keyword is if) Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Heath wasn't his mother?

From my understanding of genealogy the Benjamin S. Roberts family also included Dunn's and Ogden's just like Henry O. Roberts family had Dunn's and Ogden's... perhaps there is an unmentioned kinship between Caroline Dunn and the Dunn's in Benjamin's family tree.

Thank Jesus we do have the DNA of Roy Haws on file, far as I'm aware, so that would take care of Henry and Sarah's DNA. But would need the DNA of Caroline Dunn, and Benjamin S. Roberts for a complete and thorough analysis.

Now if it came back he was the son of Henry and Sarah and only distantly related to Caroline Dunn and Benjamin S. Roberts then it's an open and shut case of a man with quixotic fantasies.

Problem is.... Brushy makes Hico money. Hico is never going to allow an exhumation of a man who brings them revenue. Just like Fort Sumner is never going to allow an exhumation of the gravesite because a negative result will lead them to financial ruin. Billy The Kid generates millions of dollars for New Mexico, and Brushy generates potentially millions of future dollars for Hamilton County.

It would take a lot of guts for 1 of the communities to do what is right. But I would not hold my breath. Until then the research continues. Someone needs to find a smoking gun paper trail beyond what Morrison ever said. Once that's found perhaps it'd force the community to exhume and extract DNA and boast, "Come on Fort Sumner prove us wrong."

Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all

[Wayne Land]

There's not going to be any comparison of Brushy's DNA with anyone because the city of Hamilton will not allow an exhumation. Besides the fact it is highly likely Brushy isn't buried where his marker is placed. He's probably in the back of the cemetery somewhere in an unmarked grave.

[RonBk]

It's not right the city of Hamilton acting like that. Isn't there any way to persuade the city to get the exhumation going? They shouldn't be allowed to hinder an important investigation like that, surely there must be some way to get to the grave, through legal procedures or otherwise?