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Post by nmjames on Jun 8, 2012 7:02:22 GMT -5
Billy,
There are way more than one statement about Billy having Clear Blue Eyes. Not only in newspapers, books, but from people that knew Billy. I have lived in the area all my life and have met people that were alive when Billy was. I have been told stories since I was a little boy about Billy's blue eyes.
As for the signed, notarized statements, again all I will say is I know more than I want to say because I know people that are kin to him and will not discuss what I was told.
Have a great day!
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jun 8, 2012 7:16:22 GMT -5
''I have lived in the area all my life and have met people that were alive when Billy was''.
REALLY? ;D
You have to be very old then!
''I have been told stories since I was a little boy about Billy's blue eyes''.
You were listening to the traditional origin of Billy the Kid (that he was born on Nov. 23, 1859; that he was born in New York; that his real name was Henry McCarty; and that his mother was Catherine McCarty)
''for the signed, notarized statements, again all I will say is I know more than I want to say because I know people that are kin to him and will not discuss what I was told''.
It was not only Brushy friends, it was also people that knew Billy!
Severo Gallegos, Jose Montoya, and Martile Able, all surviving friends of Billy the Kid, met with Brushy Bill separately. Brushy talked with them all about events from his past as Billy the Kid and all three signed affidavits attesting to the fact that Billy the Kid and Brushy Bill were one and the same.
Bill and Sam Jones, also surviving friends of Billy the Kid, also met with Brushy Bill. Although they did not sign affidavits in support of Brushy, due to the fact that they wanted to avoid any publicity that would bring, they told Morrison that he was the Kid.
Many people have identified him as the kid also. Mrs. Martile Able who was the widow of John Able ( one of Billy's friends) was eighty nine at the time Brushy Bill Roberts was being interviewed by Morrison. Anywaywhen visited by Morrison she was bedfast and living in El Paso at the time too. She told the reporter that she had not seen Billy since some time before Pat Garret claimed to have shot and killed the kid. And when Morrison brought roberts in to see her he asked who she was he replied " sure , thats John Able's wife "! Mrs. Able said that was indeed the man she knew as the kid .
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 8, 2012 12:02:19 GMT -5
The disagreement on the eye color is easily explained. I'll use myself as an example. I believe my eye color is hazel. I've been told by others that they are brown. Others have even said they are greenish. Their are many shades of blue eyes, some with more or less gray in them. If there were speckles in Billy's eyes, not everyone would have noticed that depending on how closely they examined his eyes, thus the "clear blue" description by some. Even Gallegos had to take a "closer look" at Brushy's eyes in order to determine if the specks were there or not.
In a more general sense, we have to accept that multiple eyewitnesses will describe what they saw in different terms. Gallegos, Montoya, Able, etc. are the more trust worthy witnesses because it didn't come down to verbal descriptions that were passed on.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 8, 2012 16:04:49 GMT -5
There's probably a more appropriate thread for this one, but I'm putting it here for convenience sake. There's mention above about my drawings comparing the faces of Brushy and Billy. I wanted to share a very recent revelation regarding those comparisons. There have always been two discrepancies between Brushy's face and the tintype of Billy that have left me wondering. One is the shape of the jaw line and the other is the shape of the earlobe. As I point out on my webpage, I suspected there was a blemish in the tintype right at the bottom of the earlobe that made it look like Billy had a detached earlobe. Brushy's earlobe was attached. If Billy's was not, then they could not be the same person. I always had just a little doubt in the back of my mind about the blemish in the photo being responsible for this. But I just felt that had to be the answer and upon close examination of that area of the tintype, it does look like a blemish. There are hundreds of these little black specks on most copies we see of the tintype.
The news is that I am now 100% certain it is a blemish and that Billy's earlobes were attached just as Brushy's were. When the tintype was recently sold for 2.3 million dollars there were cameras on hand and some videos are now circulating online that show the tintype. I paused the video and zoomed in close on the earlobe. There is no question it is an attached earlobe. This makes one wonder why most images we see online have all those blemishes that are not so visible on the tintype itself. I don't know unless the images online are mostly of a different copy of the tintype that was more deteriorated than the one recently sold.
As for the jawline, I am convinced the tilt of Billy's head and the angle of the lighting in the tintype made the square jaw less noticeable and there are a couple pictures of Brushy where the jawline looks more rounded.
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Post by brianthedude on Jun 11, 2012 9:38:19 GMT -5
James, if you find the publication name for the article you referenced on J. Frank Dalton or any more of the information you alluded to, could you please post it or message me? This is a lead I hadn't yet heard of. I also wanted to point out the irony and humor in the suggestion to look at Roswell in the late '40s to debunk a conspiracy!
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Post by nmjames on Jun 15, 2012 0:34:50 GMT -5
Billy the Kid my Hero,
I forgot that I never answered your question.
Really? You have to be very old then.
My grandmother was born in 1868 - 1954. Williams M. Bill Jones was born in 1863 - 1952. Sam Jones 1869 - 1955 Amelia Bolton Church 1862 - 1957. Ellen B. Davidson 1865 - 1951.
There was one man that I can't remember his name that rode with Billy the Kid and was in his late 90's in 1957 or 1958. I remember him and my dad talking about Billy the kid.
All these people were around when Billy the Kid was.
So my answer is Yes Really!!!!
Next : You were listening to the Traditional Origin of Billy The Kid.
Answer: Yes I was along with the 1873 Marriage Record in Santa Fe of Antrim and McCarty. The 1880 Census where Joe states he was 17 years old, born in New York, Father, New York, Mother England. (As well as other Census. 1871 Augusta Land Office document where Catherine McCarty purchased land and William Antrim stated that he had known her and her two boys for six years. Department of the Interior Bureau of Pensions 1915 document where William H. Antrim gave information. about him and Catherine McCarty. I guess this is just the same of traditional history but I'll stay with it.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 15, 2012 0:44:29 GMT -5
brianthedude,
I will get you the publications on J. Frank Dalton. It is quite long and there is a lot to this story. I don't know how true all of it is but in doing some research in Roswell, I came across names and a couple of stories that I feel puts Brushy, J. Frank Dalton and others together in the Roswell area in the 1940s.
I am kind of busy at this time. I still haven't been able to find out if my home near Ruidso is standing or was burn in the Little Bear Fire. I hope to get in this weekend to see what is left. The fire has burn 227 homes this week and is still going. So it may take me a little while.
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Post by brianthedude on Jun 19, 2012 17:06:53 GMT -5
Oh man, so sorry to hear that -- best of luck to you.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 19, 2012 19:10:22 GMT -5
Brian and Wayne Thank You Very Much your well wishes.
We were very blessed. The fire went around us and some say over us and our place wasn't burn. Everything looked just as we left it but across Hwy. 48 and on up the mountain it is all burn. Just to the South and North of us several homes were lost. I use to stand on my deck and look out at the mountain across from me with all the trees and now all the trees are gone. They are reporting 227 homes are gone. So many people lost their homes and so many trees lost.
Again, Thanks!!!!
nmjames
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Post by nmjames on Jun 19, 2012 19:12:37 GMT -5
Brian,
If you want to PM me your e-mail address, I will contact you and share some of the info. I have and where to find some of it.
James
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 19, 2012 19:16:10 GMT -5
Hey James, I'm pleased to hear your home survived the fire. I think you already have my email address and I'd love to get a copy of that information as well. I'll PM the address to you just in case.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 19, 2012 19:28:29 GMT -5
Billy the Kid my Hero,
I didn't have a lot of time to respond to some of your statements but would like to ask you or anyone else about Martile Able. I would like to know about her and John C. Able, like when she was born, where, when she and John married and where. when she lived here in NM. and just any info you can give me on her and John Able. (I already know this but just want to see what you might know about them).
Thanks
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 20, 2012 10:15:30 GMT -5
Along with all that, can someone tell us exactly what she said about having known Billy The Kid? For example, did she specifically state Billy had been in their home prior to 1881? Also, add to the questions above, when did she first become acquainted with John and how much time were they spending together for how long, before they were married?
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Post by brianthedude on Jun 21, 2012 19:50:50 GMT -5
Wow -- the national or Texas media are hardly reporting that fire at all. I had no idea it was so bad. Glad to hear your place made it through, at least. I'll send you my e-mail. Thanks again.
Regarding John Able, I did notice that he's on the caption of the "fiddle photo" with supposedly Billy.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 21, 2012 23:12:29 GMT -5
In answer to my questions above I shall compare Martile Able's affidavit with the historic data sent to me by a board member:
AGE: Martile states she was born in Cook County, TX more than 80 years ago. Historic data states she was born in Cook Count, TX in 1871. So in 1950 she says she's more than 80 years old, she's actually just 79. Fact is, in those days there were many folks who weren't quite certain of their real age. Not an uncommon mistake.
MARRIAGE Martile states she married John C Able in Abilene, TX, she doesn't say what year Historic data states they were married in 1898 in Taylor Co. TX Abilene is in Taylor County
ACQUAINTANCE WITH BILLY Martile states "the family" was well acquainted with Billy The Kid then specifies her husband John knew him years before around Pecos, TX. Historic status quo likes to interpret this as an obvious lie on her part since it is unlikely she would have known Billy prior to 1881 due to her age, place of residence, previous marriage, etc. Please note she never says she personally knew Billy or even saw him prior to 1881. She does say Billy visited with "the Able Family" before and after he was allegedly killed by Pat Garrett. She does not say "she" was part of "the Able Family" prior to 1881. She says John brought Billy to their house one day when he caught a horse for Bonney to ride out.... She does not say this happened prior to 1881. She says the last time she saw Billy was in 1902. This is the only comment from her that mentions a date on which she personally saw Billy.
Unfortunately, readers of Martile Able's affidavit interpret her remarks by assuming she meant things she did not say. I believe she was telling the truth and that she was repeating what John had told her about knowing Billy before 1881 and that she recognized Brushy as the same person John introduced her to as Billy The Kid. And the most important point is that Brushy recognized her immediately upon seeing her in 1950.
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