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Post by nmjames on Jun 21, 2012 23:34:16 GMT -5
Wayne,
The only thing is I have never been able to find John around Pecos. I also went through several of my books on Billy the Kid and have not found John Able's name anywhere with Billy. I would also like to find where John states he knew Billy the Kid. where and when.
A few years back I read a post that stated that Mrs. Able said that Billy came to their house two days after Garrett was said to have killed him. I tried to find them in Pecos or the Carlsbad area and was unable to find them. I don't think John left Texas until after 1900.
If she never met Billy until 1902 I would like to know how she knew for sure it was the real Billy the Kid.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 22, 2012 12:40:17 GMT -5
She knew it was the real Billy in 1902 because he was introduced to her by her husband John who had been acquainted with him since before 1881. It would just be common sense to assume Billy knew some people the historic record does not mention. I'm sure you know there is an alleged photo. But who knows if guy with the fiddle truly is Billy or if the guy at the table is actually John C. Able? I am convinced of her voracity in identifying Brushy as I stated above because "he" recognized "her" upon seeing her in 1950. If he was a fake, how did he know who she was? The naysayers will answer that he was coached by Morrison or that his recognition of her never happened. We can go on and on can't we? I have studied private letters Morrison wrote that convinced me he was being honest about his belief in Brushy's identity and therefore I trust his book was an attempt to tell the truth the way it happened.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 22, 2012 12:54:55 GMT -5
Oops! Sorry for the double post here but I missed one of the points above. If Martile stated Billy came to "their" house two days after he was suppose to have been shot by Garrett, was she not referring again to the story told her by John. In other words "their house" meant the Ables' house as opposed to her's and John's house. The whole problem is that when she discussed the "Able Family" we can not assume she intended to say "she" was a part of the family at that time. She was relating information given to her by John. Billy was very famous even in 1900. If John knew him, he would have told her all about it.
Question. If she recognized Brushy as being the fellow she met in 1902 and he was not Billy then what was an Arkansas farmer doing hanging out in El Paso, TX in 1902 pretending to be Billy The Kid? If we can't place John at the Pecos, can we place Oliver Pleasant Roberts in El Paso in 1902? Also, if we can't show where John Able says he knew Billy then maybe we can find some place where he says he knew Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
Remember, and this means a great deal to those of us who believe Mrs. Able, she had earlier been presented with another Billy The Kid claimant and had said "no", that he was not Billy. This shows me she was not shooting from the hip or just seeking notoriety when she identified Brushy. I am therefore totally convinced she had recognized him from seeing him around 1900 and there is a hugely higher probability that in 1902 she had met "Billy The Kid" then that she had met "Oliver Pleasant Roberts".
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 22, 2012 13:21:45 GMT -5
There is nothing in Martile Able's statement that is clearly a lie. But of course there are those who believe she was a liar because otherwise her affidavit has to carry a great deal of weight. Same with Montoya, Salizar, Travis, Lee, etc. I've always asked "Where are the statements from people who knew Billy, then met Brushy and said he was a fake?" We don't have a single eyewitness ID of him as a faker? Not one! We don't even have a witness who said "Gee, I really don't know". The Jones brothers refused to get involved but reportedly did acknowledge Brushy was the real deal. So where are the negative eyewitness identifications?
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Post by nmjames on Jun 22, 2012 18:03:39 GMT -5
I think this is the part that most find wrong with Martile's statement. ; that Wm. Bonney visited with the Able Family before, and after, the time it was said Pat Garrett killed him in New Mexico; that John C. Able brought Wm. Bonney to their house on one day when he caught a horse for Bonney to ride out; that this affiant cooked a meal that day that he ate in hiding; that Bonney rode away on the horse, that the horse came back home after Bonney made his journey;
It sounds like this was just after July 14, 1881. She states "she" cooked a meal that day when he was in hiding. No one was looking for him in 1889 or 1902.
Again, as you can see, we can tell just about where John Able was and in 1880 he was 19 years old living with his mother and father in San Saba, TX. I do not find anything on him around Pecos, TX. (I also know about the picture but it is unproven) (I wish I could show you another picture that I have a copy of that looks just like the Billy in the Able picture, but I can't). I would still like to know just when and where it was that John and his family met Billy the Kid. (Not Brushy).
As to your statement about a single eyewitness ID of Him as a fake. Page 72 Morrisons Book, William Shafer, Bill Jones' grandson, wrote on July 9, 1950; "I am sorry, but Mr. Jones does not feel that he can sign our affidavits that your man is Billy the Kid. He gave no conclusive proof of this at the time we met him. It seems to me that if he were Billy the Kid, he would not need affidavits to prove his contention. He would just be Billy the Kid."
Sam Jones wrote, " Received your letter, and am sorry but feel that I can't sign the affidavit. I'm old and I just don't feel like being obligated so." (I have also been told that he knew Brushy was not Billy.)
There were others that told Morrison that Brushy was not Billy, because he stated in his book that he had trouble getting anyone to state that he was.
Also on page 71 of Morrison's book: Mrs. Able was eighty-nine years old at the time of the intervies, and bedfast, but she was sure. To an El Paso reporter she delivered herself as follows:
"I knew him the moment I saw him. He is alive. Others have tried to impersonate him, but the man I talked to in July was the real Billy. A long time ago a man was brought before me as Billy the Kid, but he wasn't. He was a fake. (The mans name was Henry Smith).
"But I recognized this Billy because I know him very well. "I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him .........
"Many times Billy would come to our house when he was on the dodge. My husband would give him horses and would be on the lookout while Billy was eating. "When he came to see me he still had his gun and pocket-knife that he always carried. I would never forget them because I saw them many times."
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Post by nmjames on Jun 23, 2012 13:10:38 GMT -5
In my post in the statement by William Shafer, in the part that reads can sign our, the word our should read your. In the part : Also on page 71, intervies, should read interview (For the ones that may not have Morrison's book).
Wayne,
A couple of more questions I have for you is about the Able picture. In 1880 when Mrs. Able said the picture was taken, John would have been 19 years old. Does the man that is said to be John look like a 19 or 20 year old?
Also on the subject of the Jones. Brushy got a copy of a picture and stated that the man in the back row is him. However, the Jones gave a copy of the same picture to Eve Ball and in Mr. Nolan's The West of Billy the Kid on page 157, it names the people as Jim Jones, and Marion Turner (Standing). Bob Speakes and John Jones (Seated) Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell. (Your thoughts)
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 23, 2012 14:12:15 GMT -5
Referring to your post yesterday, I still believe when Mrs. Able referenced "the family" she was attempting to retell information shared with her by John. Even though, as you state, no one was looking for Billy in 1889 or 1902, he was nonetheless "in hiding", as he did not want to be discovered by law enforcement and end up with a noose around his neck.
I assume you got the information of John's whereabouts in 1880 from the census. There are a couple possibilities in that regard. One, he was only in San Saba for a small portion of that year and showed up on the census. Two, his home was in San Saba and he was included on that census even though he wasn't physically there. I am not a big fan of following census data and assuming it is the whole story. It certainly can be helpful but the census report is filled out on one day out of 365 and is not infallible.
The comments you cited by William Shafer can not be taken as coming straight from the mouth of his Grandfather. He's not even attributing those comments to his Grandfather. He's expressing "his" opinion. Unfortunately, I don't have the complete information on who said what except what I've read (admittedly, that doesn't count for a whole lot). And what "I've" read is that while the Jones brothers did acknowledge to Morrison that they believe Brushy was probably the real Billy, they were not conclusive in that and were not willing to sign anything for fear of legal involvement. I don't believe they expressed an opinion that he was "not" Billy. They certainly knew the real Billy and you'd think if Brushy was a faker they would have said so conclusively. I don't see where they did that.
As for Morrison's comment he had trouble getting statements identifying Brushy, I believe he is stating his frustration in not being able to get in touch with certain witnesses. I know there were others he contacted who just never were able to meet Brushy. I don't see anything where Morrison says there was anyone that said Brushy was not Billy.
So Morrison stated Mrs. Able's age as 89. Obviously, that was a mistake. We don't know how he made that error. Was it because she told him that was her age, or was it an false assumption on his part. We don't know. But either way, it doesn't prove she was lying about what she knew and/or her recognition of Brushy.
The other comments she made that seem contradictory could very well be due to confused speech as if often present in the elderly. I'm not saying Mrs. Able's testimony is all gospel and has to be believed in it's entirety. But I do believe she met someone who John introduced to her as Billy The Kid and I do believe that person was Brushy.
I your post from today regarding the photo. I can't say how old I think the fellow identified as Able is and I don't know if anyone in that photo is identified correctly. And as for Mr. Nolan's book, I certainly wouldn't expect him to identify the person in the photo with the Jones brothers as Billy The Kid. Maybe it's Marion Turner, maybe not. We don't even know for a fact that the famous tintype that just sold for 2 million dollars is the real Billy. I can tell you the face in the photo that is suppose to be Billy, compared overlay fashion, is not a good match for the tintype or for Brushy. Though Judge Bob Hefner of Hico, TX tried to convince me at his home a few years ago, that the tintype is not Billy and the Jones photo is. Maybe he's right. Or maybe the shadows and the positioning of the chin to hold the cigar in, affects the differences with the tintype. I'll have to look again, but I thought it was said the Jones brothers confirmed the fellow in the picture was Billy.
Again, I don't know how Nolan determined the fellow was Marion Turner. Maybe "he's" right. Maybe not. But I have to tell you at this point, whether Mrs. Able was a total looney tunes and knew nothing of what she was saying or not, and whether the Jones Brothers knew Brushy or not, I still believe Brushy. And I still want to know how he could have recognized Mrs. Able if he'd never met her before. If that didn't happen that way, then Morrison was a liar and I am totally convinced that was not the case. If Morrison told the truth about Brushy recognizing her, then Brushy had met her before 1950. When and why? I have to believe there was some truth in her statements, even if there was some confusion and contradiction.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 23, 2012 14:50:56 GMT -5
Wayne,
As for where John was at different times of his life, I did use the census but also family history. As for what Mrs. Able said, she said she was there and cooked for Billy. To me that would put her there and in the El Paso Herold Post, November 25, 1950 again she stated: "But I recognized this Billy because I know him well. " I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garrett claimed he shot him........
And again on Mr. Shafter's letter he states: " I am sorry, but Mr. Jones does not feel that he can sign your affidavits........ Here Mr. Shafter is saying Mr. Jones. He is answering for Bill Jones.
As for Mr. Nolan, He was not the one that determined who was in the picture. The picture was given to Eve Ball by the Jones. (I think Sam Jones) From info she got she was the one that determined who they were. Later some others state that the one was Buck Powell.
Just a quick question. Why is that when Brushy or people that support Brushy seem contradictory, it is because of different things such as you state in your last post, confused speech and so on, but they are telling the truth. But when people that was really there when Billy was killed or broke out of jail in Lincoln, on and on. They much be telling a lie are covering up?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 24, 2012 0:01:28 GMT -5
The best way I can answer your question is to ask one. How is it Brushy was able to recognize Mrs. Able upon meeting her?
Further, her affidavit states "at the last time this affiant saw Wm. Bonney was about the year of 1902". Then you cite her statement she had not seen him since before Garrett was suppose to have shot him. Both those statements can not be correct at the same time. They are in direct contradiction to each other, so whether she was lying or not, if she made both those statements during her meeting with Morrison, she was not remembering her own comments from one minute to a few minutes later. That is what I call confused speech. So, I'm not just imagining her speech was "confused". It should be obvious to anyone and such things are very common with the very elderly. My mother was like that when in her early 80's. My mother in law is like that right now and she's 83. But neither of them were liars and I'll stake my life on that. Now I wasn't there and didn't know Mrs. Able but when you see two statements made during the same conversation that are so contradictory, one of them was likely caused by confusion or failing memory. There is much more reason to suspect that than to simply jump to the conclusion that her whole story was a lie. Especially, in view of Brushy's recognition of her. Again, how was he able to do that?
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Post by nmjames on Jun 24, 2012 14:17:23 GMT -5
I can only guess as how Brushy was able to recognize Mrs. Able and that's all it would be. If some of the things I have been told are true (and I don't know if they are) Morrison coached him and her. Mrs. Able may have really known Brushy, I'm sure he knew people, but one thing I am sure of she did not know him until after about 1900. I do not think that John knew Billy the Kid at all and he may have met Brushy after 1900 and Billy the Kid was killed in 1881.
As for Mrs. Able's statements, the part about the family was well acquainted with Wm. H. Bonney. When and where did John's family meet the real Billy the Kid. The only thing I see people state is that John met Billy in Pecos. I don't find him there and I sure don't find his family there unless it was after 1881. As for her two statements, the affidavit was dated Aug. 1950. The second statement was not on that day, it was to a reporter from the El Paso Herald-Post, November 25, 1950. So this was not the same day.
Then I look at the picture said to have been taken of Billy and the men in 1880. You have even stated that it may not be of John Able, Billy the Kid and so on. So if the picture was not taken at that time and the people are not correct, don't you think Mrs. Able would know this and that would be a lie if she did know it wasn't true. Where did the picture come from. (Did Morrison give it to her?)
If I ever get time to put the material together that you want, it talks about a bunch of pictures being bought and doctored to make them look like certain people.
We can go back and forth on this kind of stuff. I am looking for facts. If you can show me where I am wrong and get proof, I welcome it. I am looking for the truth.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 24, 2012 19:52:49 GMT -5
I was not aware the photo with "fiddle Billy" came from Mrs. Able or that she was the one who identified the people in the picture. Possibly so, I just didn't know that. But understand I'm not saying that's not Billy and John Able in the photo. I'm just saying we don't know and that it might not be them.
Also I must say my belief of Brushy's claim does not begin or end with Martile Able or any other one witness, etc. I try to consider everything and as we all know there sure is an awful lot to consider.
James, you propose Morrison may have coached Mrs. Able and Brushy. I am convinced that is not the case. Of course I can't prove he did not, but I believe in human nature and intent. And by considering his actions and letters, I don't see intent to mislead anyone. What I see is an intent to get at the truth and I believe if Brushy would have lived longer, we would have known the answers to a great many of the questions that get asked today. I too am looking for facts and I too am willing to admit I'm wrong if someone can show me I am and prove it.
In this debate, some give the benefit of a doubt to the historic status quo and some give the benefit of a doubt to Brushy's claim. But I don't believe anyone has a monopoly on the facts or the truth or proof of such. So we have these interesting discussions, don't we.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 25, 2012 1:02:37 GMT -5
Wayne, you must start reading what I send you more thoroughly. The following are in Mrs. Able's affidavit:
Mr. John C. Able, the husband of the affiant, knew Wm. Bonney years before around Pecos, Texas where the group of friends had a picture made in 1880, .........
that the pictures in his (Brushy's) album from the time he was about 14, late twenties, fifties, eighties, and the present time show a marked resemblance to the old picture in our album made in 1880 at Pecos, Texas.
I have read and have heard that the picture came from Mrs. Able.
As for wheather Morrison intented to mislead anyone, I can't say but what I can say is if he was really trying to find out if Brushy was the real Billy the Kid he sure went about it the wrong way. If I were trying to prove it, I sure wouldn't have said , "there's one way to tell. Peel off that sweat shirt and those pants and let me look you over." (I laugh everytime I read this). I really don't think Morrison ever tried to find the truth. I think he knew the truth and was just seeing dollar signs.
We do have interesting discussions and you are always very nice. I thank you for that. But I have to disagree with you on the facts. I have seen very little in the way of facts to prove that Brushy was Billy the Kid and way more to prove he wasn't. If there were very many facts to prove Brushy was Billy you would see way more on it. Very few historians feel that Brushy was Billy the Kid. With all the research that has been done over the many years, if there were anything to it, history would be rewritten.
I myself have boxes and folders full of info. I have researched the Lincoln Co War and this area for about four years and have only made a little dent in what's out there. I have talked to many people that are kin to different ones that were in the Lincoln Co. War and know what they have told me.
Again, Thank you for being as nice as you are to me knowing I am not a Brushy Person.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 25, 2012 11:51:25 GMT -5
It's not that I don't read what you send, I just didn't make the connection that the photo she said was taken was the one I've seen with Billy holding a fiddle. I don't remember where I first saw that photo or if I've ever read anything where about the provenance of the "Fiddle Billy" photo. Could she have been talking about a completely different picture? You state "As for whether Morrison intended to mislead anyone, I can't say". When you discount Brushy's ability to recognize Mrs. Able as legitimate, aren't you assuming dishonesty on the part of Morrison? The suggestion she and Oliver Pleasant Roberts might have known each other is quite a stretch in my opinion. Most historians haven't acknowledged Brushy. That's true. But is that so much because they have proof he was not Billy or is it mostly because they don't have any proof he was? History has not yet recorded that Marilyn Monroe was murdered by the Kennedys because they have no proof she was. There is evidence she was and she might very well have died that way. That's the way historians go about things. "History" is the study of the past, not the replay of it. In other words, historians don't know everything that ever happened. You state "I have talked to many people that are kin to different ones that were in the Lincoln Co. War and know what they have told me. " Well, ok, I have talked to people who are kin to people who knew Brushy and know what they have told me. Let me also say thank you James, for being polite in your disagreement with me. Such friendly debate stirs the mind and stimulates critical thought and that is a very good thing.
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Post by nmjames on Jun 25, 2012 19:06:45 GMT -5
The fiddle picture is the one that I have always seen used as the John Able picture. As you stated, it is said that John Able is in the picture. I have read that this is the picture that Mrs. Able had but would have to find where I read that. If it's not, where is the one she had?
As for Brushy having known Mrs. Able, you ask how he knew her and that was one of my answers, not stating it as fact. However, Mrs. Able stated she visited with him in 1902 and if that is true, from 1902 until 1950 would be a lot of time to know Brushy.
I try by best to find facts. As for visiting with different ones and them telling me things, they also share things with me. So far on most of it, I find things to back it up. Not always, but if I can't back it up, I will not use it or state so. I wish I could share certain things with you but I can't. I do love meeting the people and doing research though. Also these people are kin to people that was part of the Lincoln Co. War and their kin knew the real Billy the Kid. Yours only knew Brushy (Just joking on this last part.)
The only thing I will say to you about talking to people who knew Brushy, can you back up their statments with facts? To me not one person has researched Brushy the correct way. I started to and as I have said before, I found out real quick he was not Billy the Kid. It cost a lot of money going all over the country getting info and visiting with people so I quit and started digging through materail in the NM area. I know Brushy did not have his facts correct. I have said this before and will say it again. People tell me Brushy knew to much about the LCW. I can't see where he knew very much at all and as we have already talked about, I think Brushy was born in 1879. I think there is more to back that date up than him being born in 1859.
I even went to Hico and that was a blast. I wish I had a picture of the mans face when I walked into the museum and signed the book. He ask where are you from and when I told him Lincoln, I wish I had a picture of his face. He was very nice as was I.
Again, Thank You.
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Jul 26, 2012 5:22:24 GMT -5
Found something new which might be something for you to think about. Not only did Brushy said that Catherine McCarty Antrim was his aunt but also two family Bibles in the Roberts family! It can be found on here on this page. www.angelfire.com/mi2/billythekid/catherine.html
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