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Post by nmjames on Aug 3, 2016 8:01:52 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller,
Thanks for the family information. You are kin to a lady I know and I will see her today. I told her about you last week and sent her a email last night.
I agree that the 1879 birth date for Brushy is right. He also had a brother John W. that was born in 1881 and died in 1882. He is buried in the same cemetery as Henry O. Roberts first wife in Arkansas.
Thanks again. nmjames
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 3, 2016 10:55:57 GMT -5
"You are kin to a lady I know and I will see her today. " nmjames, There is an extensive record of descendants of Charles Clements of Georgia at Rootsweb World Connect, a free genealogical website. The information was compiled by a Clements descendant, Lloyd McDaniel. Search Rootsweb Worldconnect for Charles Clements, father William , spouse Nancy. wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgiThere are over 13,000 names in the database. Information about living individuals is not included. It appears that Sallie Clements and Roy Treat had about 30 descendants, and several may still live in Billy the Kid territory around Roswell.
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Post by Jim Johnson on Dec 15, 2016 22:24:04 GMT -5
This is a dead subject. I killed it in 2006 with my book!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 16, 2016 12:31:18 GMT -5
"This is a dead subject. I killed it in 2006 with my book!"
Jim Johnson, The number of believers who continue to accept the story that J. Frank Dalton was Jesse Woodson James, and that Brushy Bill Roberts was Billy the Kid, is amazing. “Billy the Kid, His Real Name Was” is a well researched book. The numerous discrepancies in Brushy Bill’s story were exposed. The faithful dismiss those as the faulty memory of an old man. Logic and reason are insufficient to convince the faithful. They are unable to relinquish their unquestioned belief in Brushy Bill’s improbable and undocumented tale of incredible adventures across 3 continents, 4 countries, 15 states, and 2 wars.
Sonnichsen and Morrison, Jameson, Hall, Valdez and Hefner, and Edwards all tried unsuccessfully to find convincing evidence that would support Brushy Bill's story. Martile Able, Robert E. Lee, and DeWitt Travis signed Morrison's affidavits that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, although none of them had seen William Bonney before 1881. Jameson published a bogus Roberts family tree. Edwards thought he found someone resembling Brushy Bill in photographs of Rough Riders.
There is no way to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 16, 2016 12:52:06 GMT -5
"The numerous discrepancies in Brushy Bill’s story were exposed. The faithful dismiss those as the faulty memory of an old man. Logic and reason are insufficient to convince the faithful. They are unable to relinquish their unquestioned belief in Brushy Bill’s improbable and undocumented tale of incredible adventures across 3 continents, 4 countries, 15 states, and 2 wars."
Well let's see how I would write those comments regarding Jim Johnson's book::
(The numerous known facts in Brushy Bill's story were intentionally left out. The naysayers dismiss those as the amazing memory of an old man who read a book by Walter Noble Burns even though he was not an avid reader. Logic and reason are insufficient to convince these naysayers. They are unable to relinquish their unquestioned disbelief of Brushy Bill's amazing and partially documented tale of incredible adventures across 3 continents, 4 countries, 15 states, and 2 wars.)
How's that?
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Post by mckinley412 on Dec 16, 2016 15:25:27 GMT -5
If there is people on here saying Billy the Kid His Real Name Was is a well researched book and that it killed the controversy in 2006 then I can't be a part of this conversation. I'm not even sure what planet I'm on now. Am I awake, am I dreaming?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 16, 2016 17:33:49 GMT -5
"The numerous known facts in Brushy Bill's story were intentionally left out. "
Very well written, Wayne.
noun: fact; plural noun: facts a thing that is indisputably the case.
There are a few indisputable facts buried in Brushy Bill's story. Jim Johnson identified the wives of Brushy Bill as Mollie Brown, Lutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison. He did fail to confirm that Brushy Bill was the owner of a "ranch" in Arkansas near Oklahoma (40 acres in Sevier County, Arkansas from February 1918 until August 1918).
"The numerous known facts in Brushy Bill's story were intentionally left out."
Brushy Bill's knowledge of the Lincoln County war are not indisputable. The same information had been published in 1926 by Burns.
I would be very interested to see a list of the 10 most important facts, or even 10 facts, that Jim Johnson failed to include in his book.
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Post by mckinley412 on Dec 16, 2016 21:14:27 GMT -5
I guess I can go ahead and do that for you since Im familiar with the book. Not sure where the number 10 came from but I know there's a lot to choose from. I'll take a look tomorrow.
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Post by mckinley412 on Dec 17, 2016 1:00:18 GMT -5
I can't do it. I got to the first page called page i. It's the first one in the Foreword. It says, "Most historians and authors seem to believe that William Bonney was Billy the Kid., but was he? Some 'proof' does exist that supports that William Bonney was Billy the Kid...." I just can't do this again, I'm sorry. Sorry, I can't read this stuff one more time. I can't pick out 10 things because I simply can't stand to read it again. I thought I could, but I'm not strong enough.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 17, 2016 16:15:01 GMT -5
mckinley412, You don’t need to read “Billy the Kid, His Real Name Was”. Just look at “Alias Billy the Kid”.
What are some of the numerous known facts to which Wayne referred? (That assumes numerous facts can be found in “Alias Billy the Kid”.) I have found only 4.
Definition: noun: fact; plural noun: facts a thing that is indisputably the case.
noun: hearsay information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor. synonyms: rumor, gossip, tittle-tattle, idle talk;
Brushy Bill made many claims. Only 4 can be verified, and are indisputable facts. 1. He married Mollie Brown 2. He married Loutecia Ballard 3. He married Melinda Allison. 4. He owned land in Arkansas near the Oklahoma border for a few months.
None of Brushy Bill’s claims about the rest of his personal life can be verified, and are not credible. 1. He said his father was J H “Wild Henry” Roberts 2. He said his mother was Mary Adeline Dunn. 3. He said he was born near Buffalo Gap, Texas. 4. He said he was born 31 December 1859. 5. He said his mother died when he was about 3. 6. He said he was raised by Mrs. Katherine Ann “Kathleen” Bonney. 7. He said Mrs. Katherine Ann “Kathleen” Bonney was the half-sister of his mother, Mary Adeline Dunn. 8. He said his grandfather was Ben Roberts. 9. He said his grandfather settled in Nacogdoches, Texas. 10. He said he had a cousin, Ollie. 11. He said he had a cousin, Martha Heath (who was the half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts). 12. He said he had a step-mother, Elizabeth Ferguson (who was the mother of Oliver P. Roberts).
None of Brushy Bill’s claims about his activities from 1881 until 1912 can be verified, and are not credible. 1. He said he lived 2 years with the Yaqui Indians in Mexico. 2. He said he was a Pinkerton detective. 3. He said he was a deputy marshal in the Oklahoma Territory. 4. He said he was a member of the anti-horse third association 5. He said he broke horses for Tom Waggoner. 6. He said he enlisted in the Rough Riders. 7. He said he rounded up ponies in the Shetland Islands. 8. He said he attended boxing school in Cincinnati. 9. He said he ranched in Mexico. 10. He said he broke horses in Argentina. 11. He said he was with Carranza and Pancho Villa in Mexico. 12. He said he was with Buffalo Bill’s and Pawnee Bill’s wild west shows.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 17, 2016 21:47:49 GMT -5
"Definition: noun: fact; plural noun: facts a thing that is indisputably the case."
TexasOpinionTeller,
Lots of facts get disputed. It happens all the time. Can anyone say "Global Warming". Are you suggesting that if you dispute or anyone else disputes a known fact that it is no longer a fact? I'm sure you don't mean that. So, who decides what is disputable and what is not? Is there a penalty for disputing an "indisputable"? If you can establish under what criteria you would agree not to dispute something, then maybe I can give you a list of such facts. But I suspect as long as anything I consider indisputable supports Brushy's claim you will still find room to dispute it.
Let me predict what you're going to describe as "indisputable". You're going to say there has to be a record of it somewhere. As in, census, birth certificate, etc. My problem with that is simple. The absence of such documentation does not prove falsehood. The presence of it does not prove fact. The sources you have usually relied on as fact are not always and vice versa.
Bottom line is, I could give you a list but you already know what I'm going to say and you have made it clear in the past that you do not accept these things as fact. Therefore, i'd be wasting my time and yours. The discussions that come up on this board often break new ground or delve into subject matter or viewpoints that have not been explored and debated ad nauseam. Those are the ones I want to encourage.
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Post by mckinley412 on Dec 18, 2016 20:54:29 GMT -5
TTT, I was going to pick things out of the book that claims they used Sonnichsen's book as a source. It is a fact that what was wrote in Sonnichsen's book is there in that book. It is also a fact that people quote from that book and change the quotes to their own sentences. I already know what facts are. Thanks anyway. Hope this helps.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 16, 2018 14:34:11 GMT -5
Brushy Bill authors hoped to find information that supported Brushy Bill’s story, and have published misinformation, opinions, and assumptions as fact.
Morrison offered the affidavits of DeWitt Travis, Robert E. Lee, and Martile Able as evidence that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. None of them had seen William Bonney before 1882.
The genealogy of William Henry Roberts as presented on page 90 of “The Return of the Outlaw Billy the Kid” is an exercise in imagination. A few relationships are correct. William A. Tunstill correctly identified Henry Oliver Roberts and Caroline Dunn as the parents of Martha Vada Roberts and Samantha Bell Roberts. Joseph McCarty was the son of Catherine McCarty/Bonney. Catherine McCarty married William Antrim in Santa Fe, NM. The rest of the chart is misinformation, not supported by any credible evidence or facts. There is definite proof the Willam A Tunstill, who was convinced that Brushy Bill’s story was the truth, told a descendant of Martha Vada Roberts Heath that she was related to Billy the Kid. The fake genealogy of William Henry Roberts on page 90 is a combination of Martha Roberts’ real family group combined with fictitious information from Brushy Bill and William A Tunstill.
William Allison, a grandson of Lizzie Allison Roberts, inherited a trunk from Lizzie. The trunk contained possessions of both Brushy Bill and Lizzie, described on pp. 32-33 of “Billy the Kid, The Lost Interviews”. Among the possessions was a Bible. This is the beginning of an entertaining and highly improbable story. The author states unequivocally , without providing any proof, that the Bible was originally owned by James Henry Roberts, father of Brushy Bill. The author further states that information in the Bible included Brushy Bill’s genealogy with the names of his parents, aunts, uncles, and other relatives. Important questions are left unanswered. Why did the author fail to provide the names of each individual? If the Bible had actually belonged to James Henry Roberts, why was the name of his wife, Brushy Bill’s grandmother omitted? How does the author know who entered the information, or when?
The story continues. On page 39 of “Billy the Kid, The Lost Interviews”, the author expands on Brushy Bill’s conversation with Morrison: “I was born on December 31, 1859, during the last day of the last day of the year. At least that’s what it says right here on this page. (Roberts pointing to a reference in a family Bible).” Why would Morrison fail to include this information in “Alias Billy the Kid”?
And there is more. On page 22 of “Billy the Kid, Beyond the Grave”, the author states, “As soon as he was able to travel, he packed his few belongings and the Roberts family Bible and left for Indian Territory”. The author must expect the reader to believe that Brushy Bill carried the Bible for 75 years, from about 1874 until 1949, as he traveled to 8 states, 2 territories, 3 foreign countries, 2 continents, the Lincoln County war, and 2 jail breaks. More questions. If the Bible had been in Brushy Bill's possession since about 1874, were the names and marriage dates of his wives in the Bible? Were the death dates of Mollie Brown Roberts and Leticia Ballard Roberts in the Bible?
Another author advances the theory that Brushy Bill might have been known as William S. Murphy while he was in Cuba with the Rough Riders. Private William S. Murphy of M Troop might be in photographs of Rough Riders, and descriptions of his activities are found on pp. 79-92 of ”Billy the Kid, An Autobiography”. This is an impossibility, for William S. Murphy died February 10, 1928 and is buried in Bennington Cemetery, Bennington, Bryan County, Oklahoma. Pension records prove that he had served with the Rough Riders.
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Post by chivato88 on Oct 6, 2019 16:55:48 GMT -5
This is a dead subject. I killed it in 2006 with my book! You didnt kill anything because we re still talking about it today, and if you said that to advertise your garbage book, you failed!
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Post by mckinley412 on Oct 7, 2019 3:00:52 GMT -5
Thank you, chivato88. I was challenged to debate anything in that Jim Johnson book and without reading it again I just opened it up and proved it was complete garbage. And I DID NOT EVEN TRY...I LITERALLY CRITIQUED THE FIRST PAGE I OPENED IT TO. Jim Johnson actually begged me to remove my reviews from Amazon which I did.
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