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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 20, 2016 14:11:39 GMT -5
On the Celsa/Saval thing I don't remember seeing or hearing about a daughter on the census, but I will take your word for it because you are The Texas TRUTH Teller. As for Johnson's book please don't make me read that thing again. I beg you! For one I am rusty on a lot of this stuff, so as I thumbed through the pages I had a hard time picking something for about a minute while I ate my chuck wagon style stew. But when I read it 10 years ago I remember it being full of examples so what I did was just pick out one of the first things I read that just seemed 'weird'. It was in Johnson's book at the bottom of page 22 when Johnson writes "Brushy said that he tried to spring Jesse Evans from jail in Fort Stockton after he killed a man named Chapman. There are two problems with this claim; Jesse never shot Chapman and Bonney never got word that Jesse was in jail in Fort Stockton. Later on, Brushy says that he told Governor Wallace that he and Tom had seen Campbell and Dolan shoot Chapman in cold-blooded murder. Brushy just can't keep his stories straight." I noticed Johnson started getting on his high horse and in real life Brushy does keep his stories straight so this is the Johnson quote I decided to look up to give as an example. Johnson says he used Sonnichsen's book as his main reference because that was the book he trusted most and so do I, but in the book Brushy doesn't say Evans killed Champan, he says "they" and then later he identifies the individual specifically as Campbell (who a detective from D.C. by the name of Angel claimed was actually Jesse James, just a lil fun fact.). There are plenty more examples in Johnson's book, but I already read through and picked it apart once and I don't want to do it again. Maybe with the Haws or Cooper book that I haven't read yet.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 20, 2016 22:38:29 GMT -5
McKinley, Why do you suppose Brushy Bill always referred to his "step-aunt" as Katherine Bonney when her name was Catherine McCarty? Wichita property records and the 1873 marriage of William H. Antrim and Catherine McCarty confirm that her surname was McCarty.
Why do you suppose Brushy Bill left Silver City in 1872 to return to Texas and live with his father and step-mother until May 1874? While Brushy Bill was in Carlton, Texas, his "step-aunt", Catherine McCarty married William H. Antrim 1 March 1873 in Santa Fe. Two of the witnesses at the wedding were her sons, Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 21, 2016 0:25:32 GMT -5
Brushy never referred to her as Bonney. In fact he said he got the name Bonney from Jesse James and Belle Starr. Again, I don't go by anything Jameson wrote and I don't even own the lost interviews book. I'm not dumb, bud. and i know you want the truth. Try it out, the water feels fine. You have probably read a lot of lies by different authors and it all gets mixed up and confusing. I do see what you are saying about Henry McCarty being at the wedding and being somewhere else...but I am only 35 and can't get the correct years when I was young and what I did, but I usually can because I lived on a schedule, but a person moving around a lot would not. Maybe he left in '73 and came back in '74, (one year off? so what?) But remember, he never referred to her as Bonney.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 21, 2016 10:10:51 GMT -5
McKinley, "Brushy never referred to her as Bonney."
Where do you suppose Morrison got this information, found on page 33 of "Alias Billy the Kid"?"
"Mrs. Katherine Ann 'Kathleen' Bonney came down from the Indian Territory and took him away ..."
I believe that was some time before he met Belle Starr.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 21, 2016 13:28:39 GMT -5
If I might chime in here. I just have to make sure this statement is corrected. First of all, it is on page 16 not page 33. But more importantly it is "not", absolutely "not" a direct quote from Brushy. This is the author Sonnichsen writing "his" description of what happened. It is not in quotes and thus cannot be construed to be the exact words used by Brushy. Apparently, Sonnichsen, a respected historian is the one who was not aware of Katherine's real last name.
Or maybe he was. Maybe her last name "was" Bonney. I am not a historian and do not propose to know the facts in this regard, but I do "suspect" her maiden name was "Bonney" and her first marriage was to a "McCarty". Thus her legal name at the time of her marriage to Antrim was still "McCarty" even though her step nephew Billy/Brushy preferred to use the maiden name. You have found no smoking gun here. Yes, I know Brushy said Belle Starr gave him the name Bonney but where did she get the name. Maybe he was going by McCarty, (his legal name) when he met her, she found out his mother's maiden name was Bonney, liked the name and suggested he should be called that. Or maybe Katherine's name was never Bonney and Belle Starr made up the name. Or maybe Brushy took the name from the dime novels about the female pirate named Bonney.
Regardless of what theory you believe, just understand there is no direct quote of Brushy saying Katherine's last name was Bonney.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 21, 2016 17:18:20 GMT -5
CORRECTION!!! McKinley, "Brushy never referred to her as Bonney."
Where do you suppose Morrison got this information, found on page 33 of "Alias Billy the Kid"?", CREATIVE TEXT PUBLISHERS, COPYRIGHT 2014, USA $14.99
"Mrs. Katherine Ann 'Kathleen' Bonney came down from the Indian Territory and took him away ..."
I believe that was some time before he met Belle Starr.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 21, 2016 20:00:12 GMT -5
The author called her Bonney. Brushy did not say that and he was not quoted as saying her name was Bonney. I believe I read in the 50's many people thought her name was Bonney, but since then many discoveries have been made and today everyone knows there is no record/document of her going by the name Bonney. I think William Morrison was dead by the time Sonnichsen made the book. Brushy would not refer to himself as "him" anyway. Brushy did tell someone that the name Bonney was given to him by Starr and Jesse James. This is one more reason to believe that Brushy was the true expert on Billy the Kid history, he knew more than anyone else did at the time, because he already knew the Bonney name was not a family name, IMO. Hope this helps.
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Post by nmjames on Jul 22, 2016 13:07:59 GMT -5
Wayne and mckinley412:
I feel you both are wrong and that Brushy was the one that said her name was Bonney and here is why:
On page 13 of Alias Billy the Kid by Sonnichsen / Morrison 1955, the last line in part, let's let Brushy Bill tell his own story. Then you go to page 14. Brushy Bill's Story 1. Go to the bottom of the page to footnote 1. It states: What follows is assembled from Roberts' notebooks, correspondence, and conversation.
From what I remember from school many years ago, is since the Brushy Bill's Story 1 has the 1, it coveres the whole chapter "Brushy Bill's Story". The chapter starts out with " and ends with " (Quotation - Marks). There are 49 other footnotes but that is when Morrison or Sonnichsen injects something else into the chapter.
So yes,from this I feel Brushy did tell them her name was Kathrine Ann (Kathlenn) Bonney.
I hope this helps!
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 22, 2016 15:31:19 GMT -5
I'm sorry but you are very wrong. Just because the whole chapter is an attempt to relate what Brushy said, does not mean everything included has to be direct quotes from Brushy. The third paragraph in the chapter, without my quotes added here, reads "Thus begins Brushy Bill Roberts' account of his own life, as set down in a series of paper-covered notebooks and corrected not long before his death." Surely you are not suggesting those are Brushy's words!!
Now notice the numerous quotes as in the second paragraph. There are numerous statements of what Morrison did, comments about historians, etc. that are obviously "not" Brushy's words and therefore are not enclosed in quotes. There is rather a diligent attempt to put all of Brushy's words in quotes. There are closing quotes at the end of the third to last paragraph on page 15 and opening quotes at the beginning of page 17. All of page 16 is "not" within quotes and therefore the comment in question was "not" Brushy's exact words.
This is elementary grammar and not even debatable.
But I must add, even if he did say her last name was Bonney, he may have been correct in that. She may well have been a Bonney before she was a McCarty. Maybe. Maybe not. Either way the book is not suggesting the words in question were a direct quote from Brushy. Anyone who doesn't understand that needs to get their elementary school grammar book back out and review it.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 22, 2016 15:42:44 GMT -5
Thanks, nmjames. I have the 2014 edition of "Alias, Billy the Kid", with no footnotes. However, the last sentence on page 29 preceding Chapter 1, Brushy Bill's Story, is identical to the one you quoted in part, re. let's let Brushy Bill tell his own story.
There is no assurance that Morrison accurately recorded Brushy Bill's story, or that Sonnichsen did not alter or revise that story. "Alias Billy the Kid" is assumed to be an accurate record of the story told by Brushy Bill supplemented by information in Brushy Bill's tablets.
Morrison must have been desperate to find something to support Brushy Bill's story. Morrison obtained 5 affidavits from individuals who believed Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Robert E. Lee, DeWitt Travis, and Martile Bilberry Able had never seen William Bonney. Robert E. Lee, in his affidavit said he first met William Bonney in the summer of 1889. DeWitt Travis was born ca. 1890. Martile Bilberry Able was living in her parents' household in Lampasas County, TX, when the 1880 census was recorded. Of course,Severo Gallegos at first said that Brushy Bill was too young to be Billy the Kid even though Morrison introduced him as William H. Bonney. With a little encouragement from Morrison, he peered into his speckled eyes and signed an affidavit. That identification can not be described as an impartial and objective. Coached would be more descriptive.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 22, 2016 16:02:14 GMT -5
"I'm sorry but you are very wrong."
That is your opinion.
Following your line of reasoning, who was it that knew Kathrine Bonney came from the Indian Territory? Who provided the name of J. H. "Wild Henry" Roberts, Brushy Bill's father? It is not enclosed with quotation marks. Who provided the name of his step-mother, Elizabeth Ferguson, and his step-brother, James Roberts? Who knew of his travels from Texas, to Trinidad, to Santa Fe, to Silver City?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 22, 2016 17:18:21 GMT -5
No. That is not my opinion. That is a fact. There are sections preceding that are enclosed in quotes and sections afterward that are enclosed in quotes. But the comment in question is "not" in quotes. This is because the author intentionally did not use quotes, indicating the information is not direct quotes. Do I really have to explain this?
OK, I'll oblige. If I have a discussion with you about your childhood and later write a book explaining that you told me all about your school days and your playmates, people you knew etc. and I even mention some of them by name then I would not need to enclose that in quotes. But if I write that you said a specific thing as in "in 1962 I met John Smith" then I need to enclose that in quotes. That is a direct quote and it means you spoke those exact words to me. The lack of quotes indicates I am relaying information you gave me but not necessarily word for word. Understand the difference?
Now, if you tell me that in 1962 you met John and I happen to be pretty certain the John you are speaking of is John Smith then I might write how you told me you met John Smith in 1962. I know I'm not quoting you verbatim so I wouldn't enclose that with quotes and it would be wrong to do so.
Please tell me you understand the difference.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 23, 2016 10:26:41 GMT -5
In addendum to my previous post, please notice on page 13 of Alias, Brushy's comments "in quotes" refer to her as "Mrs. Antrim" repeatedly. If you want to know what Brushy called her, look at the comments that are enclosed in quotation marks.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 25, 2016 10:04:05 GMT -5
"But the comment in question is "not" in quotes."
Ah, the magic of quotation marks.
Why did Brushy Bill say Celsa Guterrez was the brother of Sabal Gutierrez and one of his sweethearts if the only Celsa Guterriez in San Miguel County in 1880 was the wife of Sabal Gutierrez?
Why did Brushy Bill say he went back to Mexico about 1907 and returned in 1914, and say he married Mollie Brown in 1912 in Van Zandt County?
Why did Brushy Bill say he met Jesse Evans in 1870 or 1871 in Silver City when his “step-aunt” still lived in Wichita, Kansas, in 1871, and was in Santa Fe in 1873?
Why did Brushy Bill say he left Silver City in 1872, lived in Carlton until May 1874, causing him to miss the marriage of his “step-aunt” and William H. Antrim in Santa Fe 1 March 1873. Her sons, Henry McCarty and Joseph McCarty witnessed their mother’s marriage.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 25, 2016 18:04:43 GMT -5
I thought we were discussing whether Brushy didn't know the last name of Katherine Antrim who he repeatedly referred to in quotes as "Mrs. Antrim". Oh well, I guess I succeeded in debunking that particular theory. As for your list of apparent discrepancies in his memory of dates, you got me on that one. I guess I have to admit Brushy didn't get his dates correct. But then I've said that many times before, haven't I. I've also stated my opinion that some of the events he described were made up or imagined. I've stipulated that as well. Many times.
Doesn't change my opinion that he really was Billy The Kid.
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