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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 3, 2015 12:34:12 GMT -5
Is W. C. Jameson a historian or just another fiction writer? This is found on page 22 of "Billy the Kid: Beyond the Grave". Paraphrased, "Billy, after recovering from the beating administered by his father, packed his belongings, INCLUDING THE ROBERTS FAMILY BIBLE and left for Indian Territory.
Morrison interviewed Brushy Bill, had access to Brushy's loose leaf notebooks, and made notes. There is nothing in "Alias Billy the Kid", by Sonnichsen and Morrison, about Brushy Bill taking a Bible when he left his father's house.
Jameson is a talented and creative writer. Researcher, not so much.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 4, 2015 11:14:46 GMT -5
Morrison's book does not include reference to every single thing that Brushy said. The book itself attests to this fact. Jameson claims his information came from Frederic Bean's dictation of every word of the surviving tape recordings of the interviews with Morrison. You and I can not know the accuracy of a statement in Jameson's book simply because it does not appear in Morrison's.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 4, 2015 17:27:11 GMT -5
I should have known that. I knew Brushy took the Bible with him to the Indian Territory, then to Silver City, back to the Indian Territory, on to Kansas and the Black Hills, Idaho, where he worshipped at the Cold Creek Baptist Church, throughout the Lincoln County war, on to Montana, to Wyoming, Texas, then back to Oklahoma, and Cuba, Mexico, Argintina, the Shetland Islands, again to the Indian Territory, to Arkansas, and finally to Van Zandt County where he entered the names, marriage and death dates of his four wives. Or did he ask his step-sister, Martha Roberts Heath to keep it for him during his travels?
Strange that Morrison failed to mention such important information that could have added credibility to Brushy Bill's story.
Strange that the Bible of J. H. Roberts did not include at least the given name of his mother, Ben Roberts's wife, or the exact birthdate of J. H. Roberts.
Strange that Bean or Jameson did not make a photocopy or a transcription of such an important find.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 4, 2015 21:44:56 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 4, 2015 21:52:40 GMT -5
Maybe, maybe not. I thought the post was about the credibility of the Brushy authors in particular, Jameson. "If" Brushy told Morrison he took the Bible with him and Bean heard the tape, then Jameson's honesty is intact. He's simply reporting what was on the tapes.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 5, 2015 11:57:29 GMT -5
May I direct your attention to page 37 of "Billy the Kid, The Lost Interviews", where Jameson said the transcription represents the actual words of Brushy Bill and Morrison. Then to page 43, where Brushy said he left home as soon as he was well enough to travel. (NO mention of a Roberts family Bible here.) Then on page 34, two of the eight tapes had disintegrated and were unusable. Next is page 35, where Bean made 200 splices on 6 reels. On page 39, Brushy points to a reference in a family Bible as he identifies his birth date as 31 December 1859. (NOT IDENTIFIED AS MALINDA'S FAMILY BIBLE OR A ROBERTS FAMILY BIBLE.)
Morrison said nothing about a Roberts family Bible. Nothing was found on the six surviving tapes about a Roberts family Bible.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 5, 2015 15:12:45 GMT -5
Actually, my copy of "The Lost Interviews" was a digital download and I lost it when my hard drive recently died. I had intended to look into re-downloading that but have not done so yet. I'll get back to you on that post. I really will! In a few days. Honest!
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 5, 2015 20:41:40 GMT -5
Page 22, same book, also refers to his "family" Bible with his genealogy.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 5, 2015 21:48:17 GMT -5
Page 54, Billy the Kid: Beyond the Grave Jameson refers to Brushy Bill's genealogy found in the Roberts family Bible. Jameson added to Brushy's genealogy as shown in "Alias Billy the Kid". Jameson revised Kathrine Ann "Kathleen" Bonney to Catherine Bonney. Jameson added more genealogical information. He said Catherine Bonney's first husband was Michael McCarty who was killed in the Civil War (this was published in November 1978 in Real West magazine and is unproven). Jameson corrected Brushy's mistake who implied Catherine's marriage was in Colorado, and said that Catherine and William Antrim were married in Santa Fe (researchers found the marriage record in 1953 after Brushy's death, and this could not possibly have been in the Bible as Jameson implied).
Frederic Bean and W. C. Jameson failed to provide enough information to establish credibility of the Bible found in Malinda's trunk. Important information that should have been revealed includes the date the Bible was printed; the owner's name; images or transcriptions of all names and dates of births, marriages, and deaths. There is no assurance that this Bible was a Roberts family Bible. Brushy Bill could have entered all his genealogical information in Malinda's Allison Bible after 1944 to support his incredible story.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 6, 2015 10:30:28 GMT -5
"this could not possibly have been in the Bible as Jameson implied".
Well, actually it could have been in the Bible if someone had made the entry at any point prior to Bean's examination of it. This is often done in Family Bibles and absolutely does not mean than the person who made the entry was out to deceive anyone. Especially not if the information entered is factually correct.
I will concede that Jameson wrote things in his book he had no proof were facts. Authors do that. Historians sometimes even do that. I will even concede that Jameson intentionally stretched it more than he should have and that he likely made some unintentional errors as well. One only needs to read his book on John Wilkes Booth. That doesn't make the premise of his books and his writing invalid and it doesn't make Brushy Bill a fraud. As for the Bible, Jameson probably says Billy took the Bible with him when he left home because he, Jameson, assumes this must have happened. Or, maybe Jameson has some real evidence that it happened that way. That's a question for Jameson. I agree it likely did not unless there are two different Bibles in question. The one Brushy took with him when he ran away and the "Heath-Roberts" Bible referred to by other authors (note the name Heath comes first in the description). I think the "Heath-Roberts" family Bible often mentioned was a family Bible that was handed down in the "Heath" family and that it included evidence that Brushy and Oliver P. were two different people. It seems this Bible was discovered by Dr. William Tunstill during his extensive research that included Roberts/Heath family papers. I don't own a copy nor have I read Tunstill's book. but it probably provides some background on who had the Bible, etc. We don't know why there were no copies or photos of the Bible but it is entirely likely that the owners of the Bible did not want to have it's contents publicized in that way.
Now, all that said, can we agree that something, anything, being written in a Family Bible does not mean it is fact. If the Bible in question was Dudley Heath's and included Roberts family names, he might have entered Brushy's info based on what Brushy said. It is often rumored that Heath believed Brushy and Oliver P. were not the same person. If Heath entered that information does it make it fact? No! Does it make if false? No!
Bottom line, the Family Bible, regardless of who it came from, doesn't prove a darn thing.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 6, 2015 13:14:51 GMT -5
You are correct. Anyone, including Morrison, Jameson, or Bean could have entered the marriage information in the Bible after it was published in 1953. Brushy Bill could not, since he died in 1950. You are also correct. Information found in Bibles is not proof. Very few documents stand alone as proof: birth certificates, death certificates, marriage licenses, divorce records, notarized documents. Even those can be be wrong occasionally, as is the case in Brushy Bill's death certificate where all information is wrong except for his place and date of death.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 6, 2015 19:14:41 GMT -5
Dr. William A. Tunstill published a book about Brushy Bill in 1988. The 103 page book has copies from New Mexico Archives related to the death of Billy the Kid; 7 pages of William V. Morrison's letters to George Fitzpatrick, Editor of the New Mexico Magazine trying to replace the traditional story of Billy the Kid's death with Morrison's version; affidavit of DeWitt Travis; and other documents and business letters.
Tunstill devoted a chapter to a timeline of Brushy Bill. Most of it appears to be dates and places from "Alias Billy the Kid", by Sonnichsen and Morrison. The shallowness of Tunstill's research is obvious. In his 1883 entry, Tunstill said BtK returned from Mexico and spent a few days with John C. Able of El Paso. There is conclusive proof in marriage and census records that John C. Able and Martelia Bilberry were not married until 1898. Martile was only 10 years old in 1883 according to her cemetery marker and Texas Death Certificate.
Tunstill had convinced Eulaine Haws that Brushy Bill was her 3rd cousin. She wrote him, "FROM YOUR RESEARCH, I believe he was the real "Billy the Kid".
In the acknowledgement section, Tunstill gives much credit to Ola Everhard who, he thinks, contributed many items of valuable information. Tunstill said she is a 3rd cousin of Frank and Jesse James. Pure BS. J. Frank Dalton sold Ola Everhard the Brooklyn Bridge. Dalton told Ola, and she believed it, that Zerelda James Samuel; Bob and Charlie Ford's mother; and Ola's great-grandmother were Dalton sisters. Zeralda's maiden name was Cole; the mother of Bob and Charlie Ford was Mary Bruin; and Ola's great-grandmother was Amanda C. Alexander (married David Underwood). There is a 2 hour tape of Tunstill interviewing Ola as she feeds him the stories she heard from J. Frank Dalton. After the conclusion of the interview, the camera scanned the house, which resembled a J. Frank Dalton Museum. J. Frank Dalton was known as "Old Jesse" or Jesse James to those who believed his story.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 7, 2015 14:18:02 GMT -5
"I will concede that Jameson wrote things in his book he had no proof were facts. Authors do that. " I can certainly agree with that statement.
Jameson is a very talented and persuasive writer, excellent story teller, but researcher, forget it.
Jameson's Research Billy the Kid: Beyond the Grave Page 22. Late 1872, Billy learned his father, step-mother, and step-brother had moved to Carlton, Texas. CARLTON, TEXAS, WAS FOUNDED IN 1877. THERE WERE NO RESIDENTS NAMED ROBERTS IN THE 1870 CENSUS OF HAMILTON COUNTY.
Billy packed the Roberts family Bible. A CLAIM NOT SUPPORTED BY FACTS.
Bonney married William Antrim 1 March 1873. Billy left New Mexico late 1872; was with father and step-mother for almost two years. JAMESON NEGLECTED TO MENTION THAT HENRY McCARTY AND JOSEPH McCARTY WERE WITNESSES TO THE MARRIAGE OF CATHERINE McCARTY AND WILLIAM ANTRIM WHILE BRUSHY BILL SAID HE WAS IN HAMILTON COUNTY.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 7, 2015 16:21:03 GMT -5
"The one Brushy took with him when he ran away and the "Heath-Roberts" Bible referred to by other authors (note the name Heath comes first in the description). I think the "Heath-Roberts" family Bible often mentioned was a family Bible that was handed down in the "Heath" family and that it included evidence that Brushy and Oliver P. were two different people. It seems this Bible was discovered by Dr. William Tunstill during his extensive research that included Roberts/Heath family papers. I don't own a copy nor have I read Tunstill's book. but it probably provides some background on who had the Bible, etc. We don't know why there were no copies or photos of the Bible but it is entirely likely that the owners of the Bible did not want to have it's contents publicized in that way."
There is nothing in Tunstill's book, "Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same" about a Heath Bible, a Roberts Bible, or a Heath-Roberts Bible. There is a letter from Mrs. Henry Heath to Dr. Tunstill offering to help. The acknowledgements section lists Eulaine Haws, Henry and Jo Heath, Rev. Paul Emerson, and Arlo Norman as very helpful in providing old photos, papers, and documents of the Roberts family in east Texas. No mention of a Bible.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 7, 2015 22:23:14 GMT -5
Bible Story
Tunstill quotes from Eulaine Haws, Page 32. "From grandmother's Bible it gives the name of Oliver Pleasant Roberts, who was my uncle born in 1879. She then goes on to repeat Brushy Bill's story. "and being a first cousin to William Henry Roberts - alias Brushy Bill Roberts." Brushy Bill Roberts took Oliver Pleasant Roberts' name after his death in the Texas Panhandle.
Eulaine's version has Oliver Pleasant Roberts dying in the Texas panhandle. Brushy's version has cousin Ollie N. Roberts dying in Oklahoma. Both versions involve horse theft. .............. Eulaine said that Brushy Bill told attorney William Tunstill the entire story in detail.
Looks as if Tunstill sold Brushy's story to Eulaine.
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