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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 25, 2016 18:32:23 GMT -5
"As for your list of apparent discrepancies in his memory of dates, you got me on that one. "
You can excuse Brushy Bill's problems with dates, claiming a faulty memory. Brushy Bill did not forget the name of his sweetheart. He just forgot that she was the wife, and not the brother, of Sabal Gutierrez, and had a 3 year old daughter in the 1880 census of San Miguel County.
And no, you did not debunk that theory that Brushy Bill referred to his "step-aunt" as Bonney. Brushy Bill did not know Catherine's name was McCarty, for that became public knowledge after his death.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 25, 2016 19:05:39 GMT -5
Jameson, a talented writer with a superb imagination, has written 3 of the most interesting books about Brushy Bill. He can start with an acorn and describe a towering oak tree.
Morrison solicited and published an affidavit from Martile Able. The affidavit of Martile Able includes a sentence about a group of friends having a picture made in 1880 with a good likeness of William Bonney in the picture.
Jameson, with his flair for storytelling, expands the story. The location of the photo is now a barbershop. Martile's husband, John Able, becomes the barber. He is shaving a customer. Martile is now credited with describing the scene, with Billy the Kid awaiting his turn on bench.
Of course, John C. Able, age 19, was living with his parents in Uvalde County, Texas, when the 1880 census was recorded. But the story is a lot more interesting as told by Jameson.
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 25, 2016 22:55:46 GMT -5
"Brushy Bill did not forget the name of his sweetheart. He just forgot that she was the wife, and not the brother, of Sabal Gutierrez, and had a 3 year old daughter in the 1880 census of San Miguel County." If we could find a marriage certificate showing that the two were married and that Sabal's wife didn't die giving birth or some other way and his sister Celsa wasn't just helping out that would be fantastic!!! Also, how did Brushy know Celsa and Sabal/Saval were in Fort Sumner that night? San Miguel County isn't very close by. Not sure if it was back in 1880, maybe it was. I think it's crazy that Brushy knew Billy was being indicted for murders of Brady and Hindman and the indictment for the murder of Buckshot Roberts had gotten dropped on a technicality when even Jim Johnson didn't know two thirds of that when he tried to debunk him in his book. I think it's crazy that Joe Hines came forward and knew that he had been released from prison which was confirmed by the department of corrections in Texas when the whole world and still most of the world still thinks Jesse Evans escaped prison. If John C. Able wasn't working at a barbershop when the 1880 census was taken, I am curious what he was doing the other 364 days a year when the census wasn't being taken. Is it possible that Sabal/Saval and Celsa Guiterrez were common names and there were more than one set living together, the same way there was about a dozen Catherine and Michael McCarty's living together? P.s I just read to day in Donald Cline's book that Lucien Maxwell's grand daughter claimed Billy was not born in New York, but rather on a ranch near the Texas/New Mexico border. Could this have been where Brushy says his dad trained him to ride?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 26, 2016 13:04:06 GMT -5
" If John C. Able wasn't working at a barbershop when the 1880 census was taken, I am curious what he was doing the other 364 days a year when the census wasn't being taken."
What difference does it make? Jameson painted a word picture of a barbershop, and attributed it to Martile. So what. There is nothing in Martile's affidavit about a barbershop. It's only in Jameson's imagination. Martelia Bilberry Henderson Abel died 3 May 1952 in El Paso. I don't think Jameson interviewed her for the details. Martelia Bilberry was not yet 10 years old, living in her parent's home in Lampasas County, Texas, in 1880. Jameson is a novelist and entertainer, not a historian or researcher.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 26, 2016 13:11:26 GMT -5
McKinley412, "Also, how did Brushy know Celsa and Sabal/Saval were in Fort Sumner that night? San Miguel County isn't very close by."
This is the title of the census page where Sabal and Celsa Guiterres were living in 1880: "Cabra Arenoso, Fort Sumner, San Miguel, New Mexico"
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Post by mckinley412 on Jul 26, 2016 17:02:47 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, I understand we are supposed to be discussing authors on this thread and I've already given my input on certain authors a couple of times a piece. I'm not trying to kick a lame dog. Perhaps we should change the subject to authors like Pat Garrett and John Poe who were there.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Jul 26, 2016 22:54:21 GMT -5
McKinley, Good idea. Authors are fair game.
The book by Pat Garrett/Ash Upson has some facts and a generous helping of guesses and pseudo facts. The same can be said of books by Sonnichsen & Morrison, Jameson, Tunstill, Valdez & Hefner, Hall, and Edwards.
Reliable information about Billy the Kid is limited to a few credible records. He was identified as William Antrim alias William Bonney alias Kid in NM court records. He was identified as Henry McCarty in the Santa Fe marriage record of his mother. He was identified as William Bonney in the Coroners Jury Report. 1881 newspapers reported the death of Billy the Kid.
Reliable information about Brushy Bill in his role of William Henry Roberts is limited to the names of his 3 wives, and his ownership of acreage in Arkansas.
Reliable information about Oliver P. Roberts is found in census records, World War I registration in Little River County, AR, where his wife Mollie is buried, marriage records, warranty deed records, and the transcription of Olliver's name and date of birth from the Roberts family Bible by his niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 1, 2016 17:19:37 GMT -5
nmjames, "So yes,from this I feel Brushy did tell them her name was Kathrine Ann (Kathlenn) Bonney."
nmjames, Here's a sample of the many problems with Brushy Bill's story:
No credible evidence has been found that Billy the Kid was alive after July 1881. That is a mandatory requirement if Brushy Bill’s story is to be considered even possible. No credible evidence has been found that Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver P. Roberts were two different men. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, and Van Zandt marriage records show that Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts. Brushy Bill’s story is an incredible tale. Hollywood writers could not create a more unbelievable story. Nothing in Brushy Bill’s story can be considered as fact until verified by a credible source. Examples of verification with a credible record: Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown. Van Zandt County marriage records reveal that Mollie Brown married Oliver Roberts. Brushy Bill said he married Loutecia Ballard. Ollie Roberts signed the Van Zandt death certificate of Lutecia Robers. Brushy Bill said he married Malinda E. Allison. Hamilton County marriage records prove Malinda E. Allison married O. L. Roberts. Brushy Bill said he had a ranch in Arkansas near Oklahoma. Arkansas warranty deeds prove O. P. and Mollie Roberts bought and sold 80 acres of land in Sevier County, Arkansas, in 1918.
The most believable part of Brushy Bill’s story was his detailed knowledge of characters and events in the New Mexico Territory, especially his account of the Lincoln County war. His description is very similar to that found in “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, by Walter Noble Burns, published in 1926. "The Saga of Billy the Kid" could easily have been the source of Brushy Bill's detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County war. Both Morrison and Burns said it was a 3 day battle. Other writers described it as a 5 day war.
Brushy Bill Roberts is not found in any official record as Brushy Bill Roberts or William Henry Roberts, other than his revised cemetery marker. Brushy Bill signed his WWI draft card as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1879. The niece of Oliver P. Roberts, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, said the birthdate of Oliver P. Roberts, 26 August 1879, was found in the family Bible. No census or other credible record of Brushy Bill’s father, J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts, has been found. No credible record of Brushy Bill’s mother, Mary Adeline Dunn has been found. No credible record of Brushy Bill’s half-brother, James Roberts, has been found. No credible record of Brushy Bill's cousin, Ollie Roberts, has been found. Brushy Bill’s step-mother, Elizabeth Ferguson, was the mother of Oliver P. Roberts. Brushy Bill’s cousin, Martha Heath, was the half-sister of Oliver P. Roberts. Henry Oliver Roberts, father of Martha Vada Roberts Heath, was the father of Oliver P. Roberts. Brushy Bill said he was born near Buffalo Gap in 1859, which was beyond the frontier. The Buffalo Gap area was not settled by pioneers until after 1870. There were Indian raids in Brown County, two counties east of Taylor County, in the 1860s. The first census of Taylor County was conducted in 1880. Brushy Bill said he lived with his father in Carlton, TX, until 1874, but Carlton did not become a community until 1877. There were no Roberts families living in Hamilton County before the 1880 census, and none were headed by J. H. “Wild Henry” Roberts. Brushy Bill never referred to his “step-aunt” as Catherine McCarty, although she appears in 1870 Sedgwick County records, and the 1873 Santa Fe marriage record, as Catherine McCarty. Brushy Bill never referred to his step-father as William Antrim. Brushy Bill never mentioned his brother, or “half-brother”, Joseph McCarty Antrim. Brushy Bill said he returned the belongings of his cousin, Ollie, to his parents in Sulphur Springs. The parents of Oliver P. Roberts were living in Hopkins County at that time.
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Post by nmjames on Aug 2, 2016 0:47:28 GMT -5
Hi Texas Truth Teller,
I want to thank you for taking time to post all the information on Brushy Bill. I have researched Brushy Bill for a few years and know everything you posted. However on the WWI draft card, I have his birth as 26 August 1878. It's no big deal because I feel he was born in 1879. I am not one that feels Brushy was Billy the Kid because of the research I have done and having a good knowledge on the Lincoln Co. War.
Did you say you are kin to J.H. Clements? J.H. Clements 1849 - 1927. His wife was Sallie J. (Sarah Jane) Clements. They are buried in Roswell. If so, I know some of your distant kin.
Again, Thanks for the post.
nmjames
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 2, 2016 1:25:15 GMT -5
"No credible evidence has been found that Billy the Kid was alive after July 1881. That is a mandatory requirement if Brushy Bill’s story is to be considered even possible."
Credible or not, there certainly is evidence Billy was alive after July 1881. Among other things, the most obvious is the affidavits signed by those who knew him and identified Brushy as being the real deal. So the question isn't whether there is evidence. The question is whether that evidence is credible and that my friend is a matter of opinion.
I'm sure you know mine.
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Post by mckinley412 on Aug 2, 2016 14:18:15 GMT -5
Texas Truth Teller, you wrote in your last post on this thread, "Brushy Bill said he returned the belongings of his cousin, Ollie, to his parents in Sulphur Springs. The parents of Oliver P. Roberts were living in Hopkins County at that time." I believe you were giving an example of Brushy making a mistake but...Sulphur Springs is in Hopkins County.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 2, 2016 15:50:11 GMT -5
"Among other things, the most obvious is the affidavits signed by those who knew him and identified Brushy as being the real deal."
Wayne, I will agree that DeWitt Travis, Robert E. Lee, and Martile Able all signed affidavits swearing that they BELIEVED Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.
As I have previously pointed out, Robert E. Lee's affidavit said he first met Billy the Kid in the summer of 1889. DeWitt Travis was born about 1890. Martilia Bilberry Abel was living in Lampasas Count, Texas, in 1880. Did any of them see William Bonney prior to July 1881? Surely you do not consider any of these affidavits to be credible evidence that Billy the Kid was alive after July 1881.
Severo Gallegos at first said Brushy Bill was too young to be Billy the Kid. He was right. How often does a 70 year old man appear to be 90 years old?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 2, 2016 16:16:45 GMT -5
"Texas Truth Teller, you wrote in your last post on this thread, "Brushy Bill said he returned the belongings of his cousin, Ollie, to his parents in Sulphur Springs. The parents of Oliver P. Roberts were living in Hopkins County at that time." I believe you were giving an example of Brushy making a mistake but...Sulphur Springs is in Hopkins County. "
McKinley412, Sulphur Springs is the county seat of Hopkins County. I was not implying that Brushy Bill make a mistake in identifying the location. I was illustrating the connection of Brushy Bill to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, the parents of Oliver P. Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, aka William Henry Roberts.
It is a fact that Brushy Bill claimed to be returning the belongings of the mythical Ollie Roberts to his parents in Sulphur Springs. He further claimed that Ollie's mother took him to be her long lost son and called him Ollie. It is a fact that the parents of Oliver P. Roberts, Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, were residents of Hopkins County from about 1887 until about 1905 when they relocated to Van Zandt County. Since Oliver P. Roberts, in his pretend role of Brushy Bill, had lived in Hopkins County for several years, he was familiar with the area. He also identified his half-sister, Martha Heath, as his cousin. Martha Vada Roberts married Dudley Heath.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 2, 2016 16:42:19 GMT -5
"I have his birth as 26 August 1878."
nmjames, Thanks. You are correct. The WWI draft card shows 26 Aug 1878. The 1900 census shows that Oliver Roberts was born August 1879. Find A Grave Memorial# 13864417 shows that his sister, Mary Cordelia Roberts Adams, was born 17 April 1878. Collectively, I think that rules out 1878 as his birth year. I feel confident that Oliver P. Roberts was born in 26 August 1879 as his niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon quoted from the Roberts family Bible in her letter to Joe Bowlin.
William T. Clements, Texas Ranger, was my great-uncle. He married Amanda Clements (no relation). They were the parents of 4 children. Joseph Hardin Clements (1886 - 1971) Sarah Catherine "Sallie" Clements (1888 - 1977) Myrtle Clements (1890 - 1904) George Clements (1892 - 1973) Joseph Hardin and George Clements were prominent sheep ranchers in NM. They had no children. Sallie Clements married Arthur Leroy "Roy" Treat
After the death of William T. Clements, his widow, Amanda Clements married Carl Isaac Adamson, who is believed to have been present when Pat Garrett was killed.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 2, 2016 16:55:19 GMT -5
Tunstill’s book, “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”, has an obvious mistake, and a very interesting interview of Brushy Bill’s cousin.
Obvious mistake: Tunstill said Brushy Bill returned from Mexico in 1883, and stayed a few days with Mr. & Mrs. John C. Able of El Paso. Not possible. They were not married until 1898. They were not residents of El Paso until about 1902.
Interesting interview: Mr. & Mrs. Tunstill were invited to the home of a female granddaughter of Henry and Sarah Elizabeth Roberts. Tunstill, on page 35 of “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”, tells of his visit to an unidentified female he identified as a 2nd cousin of Brushy Bill. (She was actually a 1st cousin of Oliver P. Roberts.) In August of 1987, Tunstill and his wife visited in the home of Brushy Bill’s cousin, probably Velma O. Arnold Tadlock (16 Feb 1896 - 2 Jan 1989). (Tunstill researched Brushy Bill’s story from about 1981 until 1988.) Velma denied that Ollie was Billy the Kid. Tunstill showed Velma photographs of Brushy Bill, which she recognized as her cousin Ollie. Velma said she had visited the home of her grandparents, Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Roberts, near Sulphur Springs almost every summer, and had first met Brushy Bill when she was 6. (That was about 1902, and Oliver P. Roberts was about 23 and living with his parents.) Velma showed Tunstill a large picture of her grandmother, Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts. Tunstill responded by saying that is the same picture identified as Brushy Bill’s mother, Mary Adeline Dunn, on page 58 of Sonnichsen’s book. Velma remembered only the first of Ollie’s wives, Mollie. She knew that Ollie retired from the rodeo circuit, and settled in Hico.
This interview is informative. Velma identified Brushy Bill as her cousin Ollie. He was in Hopkins County about 1902. He retired from the rodeo circuit. That explains Brushy Bill’s many stories about riding, and provides a possible explanation of some of his scars. Tunstill acknowledged that the picture of Elizabeth Ferguson had been identified by Morrison as Mary Adeline Dunn.
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