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Post by tboor74 on Nov 3, 2021 10:49:14 GMT -5
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Post by kerry on Nov 3, 2021 13:28:11 GMT -5
On that note, this article re Sitting Bull is interesting. New methods of DNA comparison..... ......where is that supposed lock of hair again? Similarly. J Frank Dalton could be proved / disproved immediately. Things are changing....... www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/sitting-bulls-great-grandson-identified-dna-fragments-rcna3912[/quoteThe Fort Sumner museum has a "clump" of hair (a good hand- full) fastened in a leather purse.....the hair looks in good condition - fair colored fine textured and wavy suggesting curls: the specimen features on the museum's utube video of a few years ago.The hair is consistent with that seen in the old tin type and even more so in at least 4 other photos claimed to be BTK by those who knew him. My favorite is the one of him said to be at a wedding where he is very well -dressed posing for the camera with a thin smile (concealing his teeth) and he seems to be sitting slightly side ways looking directly at the camera and very relaxed...perhaps 1879 rather than Garrett's wedding?
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Post by RonBk on Nov 3, 2021 14:51:40 GMT -5
What wedding photo are you referring to? This one?
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Post by kerry on Nov 3, 2021 17:05:16 GMT -5
Thanks Ron... No this Vegas photo does'nt do anything for BTK at all - apart from a round face and fair complexion (especially compared to the others like Pat ) No - I don't think this is a wedding photo at all - I think this is Pat electioneering mid - 1880 ( great photo of Dave and Barney though) Iam referring to the photo - no hat - white shirt and neck tie with a black coat..(almost a Mexican don-look)obviously a professional potrait taken at a wedding which it was said to be - could be Pat's first wedding but not the second.. As Paulita and Sally said: BTK was always a smart dresser and perhaps the Croquet picture wasn't a wedding either for that reason and that it was probably 1878 before the Regulators broke up (and well before Charlie's wedding)? Sorry Ron - don't know how to load photos etc...just got a phone . Interesting Dirty Dave has his thumb clear of the hammer and finger clear of the trigger in the Vegas photo..the way he is grips the stock completely indicates (to me anyway) the stock is a bird's head - unique to the double action Colt where as the traditional single action square butt can be seen clearly in the old tin type. Iam sure the camera men knew the props would always be hot in those days..! -I think if you were a threat to your friends - they simply kept their distance as was apparently the case with Curly Bill and even Doc Holiday. Obviously in the Vegas photo. everyone appears comfortable with Dave haming it up with Colt's first attempt at a double action revolver...
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Post by RonBk on Nov 3, 2021 17:30:21 GMT -5
All you gotta do to post photos from mobile is scroll down at the bottom right there is a button that says "desktop", just click that. I agree it does not look anything like the kid in the Vegas photo. I figure this is the photo you were referring to?
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Post by kerry on Nov 3, 2021 18:11:59 GMT -5
All you gotta do to post photos from mobile is scroll down at the bottom right there is a button that says "desktop", just click that. I agree it does not look anything like the kid in the Vegas photo. I figure this is the photo you were referring to? View AttachmentYes --- That's the one Ron.. there is a slightly better version closer up - the Vegas photo can't be improved and some versions don't include a full picture of Dave's gun so the double action trigger isn't seen....
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Post by kerry on Nov 4, 2021 0:31:02 GMT -5
All you gotta do to post photos from mobile is scroll down at the bottom right there is a button that says "desktop", just click that. I agree it does not look anything like the kid in the Vegas photo. I figure this is the photo you were referring to? View AttachmentYes --- That's the one Ron.. there is a slightly better version closer up - the Vegas photo can't be improved and some versions don't include a full picture of Dave's gun so the double action trigger isn't seen.... There are several photos that are clearly the same person...by the same Silver City itinerant photographer - he probably did the formal Dolan / Olinger portrait of them dressed in Baffalo robes--- as well as the casual bunk -house card game....probably the old tin type in Fort Sumner- the croquet game at Tunstall's ranch -and also the Vegas line-up with Pat and friends...this photographer captured it all. The photo of a young BTK in Silver City - a studio portrait standing wearing a long coat and no hat...was confirmed by a forensic expert against the old tin type: without being an expert Ron - I can clearly see the boy in the Silver City photo is the same person in the wedding photo - 4 years later. His rounded soft face would have earned him the nick name : "Kid". You can see the chubby jaw - light colored wavy hair in the card game and at least two other photos that have emerged from private family albums - not junk shops...the man in these pictures can only be BTK - is he Brushy Bill as well ? If not - who is he ? He was there at the time - said to be BTK by those who were there : so Brushy has to be this man - there is no one else unidentified walking the earth at this time in this part of New Mexico's history.
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Post by RonBk on Nov 4, 2021 1:20:06 GMT -5
I have to partially disagree on this. I dont believe its certain all these photos are the same person. Some of them could possibly be Billy yes, but I have my doubts. None of them is a perfect match neither to the authenticated tintype or to Brushy. The only other photo that convinced me is the Gaubert tintype, its a perfect match to both the authenticated Billy tintype and to Brushy Bill Roberts.
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Post by tboor74 on Nov 4, 2021 3:02:08 GMT -5
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Post by kerry on Nov 4, 2021 12:01:03 GMT -5
Another excellent photo which I think is the same guy as in the wedding photo... the profile image of the card player... the boy standing in the big coat (which a forensic artist matched with the old tin type 100%) and at least two other photos such as the one said to be with Tunstall and another possible wedding photo with an hispanic man whose family claimed BTK as a family friend... Apart from the old tin type - Brushy's photo does'nt match up to any of these at all --- a totally different person : So who is this guy ? He was obviously in the right place at the right time....There was a lot of posing for photos going on pre- 1881 that Brushy seemed to have miss out on.....and as Paulita said : the old tin type was not a good likeness suggesting BTK had a more agreeable face :there had to be a reason to call him the "Kid". Despite differing opinions - most of these photos must have been taken by the,same itinerant photographer from Silver City ...he must have photographed both sides of the LCW : this man would have been a gold mine of information on BTK and the LCW as well as recording every day life in New Mexico at that time...as a photographic journalist his work is authentic and impartial.
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Post by leeb on Nov 4, 2021 12:44:20 GMT -5
On that note, this article re Sitting Bull is interesting. New methods of DNA comparison..... ......where is that supposed lock of hair again? Similarly. J Frank Dalton could be proved / disproved immediately. Things are changing....... www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/sitting-bulls-great-grandson-identified-dna-fragments-rcna3912[/quoteThe Fort Sumner museum has a "clump" of hair (a good hand- full) fastened in a leather purse.....the hair looks in good condition - fair colored fine textured and wavy suggesting curls: the specimen features on the museum's utube video of a few years ago.The hair is consistent with that seen in the old tin type and even more so in at least 4 other photos claimed to be BTK by those who knew him. My favorite is the one of him said to be at a wedding where he is very well -dressed posing for the camera with a thin smile (concealing his teeth) and he seems to be sitting slightly side ways looking directly at the camera and very relaxed...perhaps 1879 rather than Garrett's wedding? old brushy had black hair
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Post by kerry on Nov 4, 2021 13:39:37 GMT -5
old brushy had black hair A picture may be able to paint a thousand words - but it can generate thousands more in controversy... BTK's fair complexion made him less photogenic in outdoor scenes such as the Croquet picture and even the old tin type is not that clear - but this impromptu photo. catches BTK with his guard down to capture his prominent teeth cowboy dress and "props".... Not a dentist or forensic artist myself - But Brushy's photo suggests to me an absence of teeth rather than a subtle bulge in the lower jaw of someone concealing consciously or not - significant front teeth behind a tight lipped- smile : Far from smiling - for which BTK was well known...Brushy's photo to me is quite grim - the eyes piercingly narrowed and hawkish...a dangerous harsh looking man : on seeing the photo first time I was taken aback - perhaps this is how BTK should look if he were the hated vicious killer plaguing New Mexico as most were led to believe....
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Post by leeb on Nov 4, 2021 13:47:37 GMT -5
A picture may be able to paint a thousand words - but it can generate thousands more in controversy... BTK's fair complexion made him less photogenic in outdoor scenes such as the Croquet picture and even the old tin type is not that clear - but this impromptu photo. catches BTK with his guard down to capture his prominent teeth cowboy dress and "props".... Not a dentist or forensic artist myself - But Brushy's photo suggests to me an absence of teeth rather than a subtle bulge in the lower jaw of someone concealing consciously or not - significant front teeth behind a tight lipped- smile : Far from smiling - for which BTK was well known...Brushy's photo to me is quite grim - the eyes piercingly narrowed and hawkish...a dangerous harsh looking man : on seeing the photo first time I was taken aback - perhaps this is how BTK should look if he were the hated vicious killer plaguing New Mexico as most were led to believe.... the croquet picture has never been authenticated which is why it never sold, there are no more pictures of the kid apart from the tintype and also old brushy had black hair which the real kid didn't. Such a long reply but didn't actually answer anything
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 4, 2021 17:18:34 GMT -5
We have no color photos of Brushy or Billy and hair color can be difficult to determine with black and white, especially older photos. We don't know that Brushy's hair was black as opposed to dark brown, but it was obviously "darK". I've been to the Ft. Sumner museum and seen the hair they have. It is inside a small leather purse with part of it extending out. The exposed part looks sort of "reddish" while the hair deeper inside the purse appears quite dark. I'm no expert on how hair behaves over time but I think the part exposed to light will turn reddish after 100+ years. And looking at the tintype so widely agreed upon as being the real Billy, the hair in that photo looks quite dark to me.
Bottom line, I don't think we can make a fair judgement as to the matching or not matching hair color between the tintype, Brushy, and the museum hair.
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Post by tboor74 on Nov 5, 2021 2:51:16 GMT -5
Playing Devil's Advocate here, my hair look quite dark in the winter, but a bit of sun on it and it's fully blonde in summer......100% natural, takes a lot of people by surprise. I'm not arguing one way or the other, just saying how hard it is arguing over specifics of hair color in different pics, particularly when said pics are black and white to start with!
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