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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 25, 2012 16:58:27 GMT -5
My impression of the story was that Severo was already gone to the store for the tobacco "before" Morrison and Brushy arrived and since they were unable to speak with him they ended up talking to Josephine instead. I don't know if the initial meeting with Severo happened later that same day, on a previous occasion or on a subsequent visit.
Just my point. The fact that the Sedillios girl isn't mentioned anywhere else indicates to me that it was a short and fleeting romance that never made it into the history books. All the more reason to believe if Brushy knew about it and Josephine knew about it, the only explanation is that Brushy really was Billy The Kid. He couldn't have gotten that info from Morrison or from any books on Billy. So unless Jim Tully made the whole thing up, I think it is "very" important.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 25, 2012 18:42:12 GMT -5
Wayne,
What did you find out of Frank Randolf? I do not find him in Lincoln during the Lincoln Co. War. I find two Frank Randolf's in San Patricio at later dates but both would have only been 10 to 12 years old. I do know that Frank was not in the California Column as Mr. Tully stated.
I did run into a Coe today and ask him about Jim Tully. He knew him well and said they are distant kin. The Tully's are on Frank Coe's side and the Coe I talked to today is on George Coe's side. However the Jim Tully that is kin to the Coe and the Jim Tully that wrote the letter may not be the same man. The reason I say this, is their Jim Tully owned a ranch next to Mr. Coe. The one that wrote the letter listed Ruidoso Downs. I ask Mr. Coe is he knew of any other Jim Tully's and he did not. I told him why I was asking and he just said, That sounds like our Jim because he was kind of out there.
Now to your statement about Josephine and Sedillios. There are stories all over about Billy the Kid. From about 1925 until even now there are people that tell stories. Billy the Kid stayed in every house in the area and beyond. I don't know how may guns that have been sold that belong to Billy the Kid. Did you know that Billy the Kid had a twin brother? You wouldn't believe the different stories I have been told.
The question I have is can you prove the Josephine Sanchez story is true. Did Morrison write about it? I would have thought he would have run with that story. As for Brushy speaking Spanish, I have not gone into to it before because I have had people that met Brushy that told me he could not speak Spanish. One told me he knew a little but couldn't talk to you in Spanish. Then you would come back and say this person said he could. So who is right?
When I look into something, I try to find where it came from, if there are any other matching stories. Check, Check and re-check as much as I can. I will keep checking into the Sedillios name and I know a historian in Lincoln that is a Sanchez. (Not saying from the same family but one never knows.)
This may be important to you but you have to match more than just this story to make Brushy Billy the Kid. If he was born in 1868, he was not old enough and if he was born in 1879 like his blood family states, he was only two. Also I question just how the letter happen to come about.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 25, 2012 22:40:51 GMT -5
Wayne,
I had forgot about Jose Miguel Sedillo (s). Pat Garrett wrote about him in his book and George Coe has a story about Billy being at the Sedillo house in San Patricio and Jesse Evans and the Seven Rivers Gang was prowling around. He said Jesse Evans, was Billy's former friend but now his avowed enemy.
This could be your Sedillo (s) but all his girls were to young to have been Billy's girlfriend.
There is a story and a picture of Jose Sedillo (s) in the 1942 Post but I can't make it out.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 25, 2012 22:44:33 GMT -5
Wayne,
Correction It's Life Magazine, August 4, 1941.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 25, 2012 22:54:12 GMT -5
Wayne,
You can go to August 4, 1941 Life Magazine and it will take you to the magazine. Click on the article Truth about Billy the Kid and it states that Don Sixto Sedillos sister was Billy's girlfriend but what you won't like it the article it talks about Pat Garrett.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 25, 2012 23:54:35 GMT -5
Thanks Wayne for the letter. That was fun to research. I have always thought that Brushy was in the area sometime in the 1940's and picked up some of his info. I also thought he found some in paper back books and magazines and I think this helps prove it. The one thing in Morrison's book was on page 21, Brushy states, In the sumer of 77 Tom O'Keefe and I left Mesilla for Loving's Bend near Phoenix, New Mexico. I always thought Brushy got this out of a book because there was no Phoenix, New Mexico in 1877. In Morrison's book at the bottom of the page in the footnotes Morrison talks about Dee Harkey's book Mean as Hell, 1948. The first time I read this in Morrison's book before I looked at the foot notes, I thought this came out of Dee Harkey's book.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 26, 2012 9:25:05 GMT -5
Lovings Bend is near Carlsbad and as far as I can tell there still is no Phoenix, NM even today. So I think it is obvious Brushy simply confused Carlsbad and Phoenix. A distinct possibility for someone approaching 90 years of age. You've made a great effort to explain how both Brushy "and" Josephine could have known about the "Sedillio girl", and of course it is possible. Just like it is possible that Jim Tully just made up the whole story. As for Morrison not mentioning it or following up on it in his book, there were lots of things he could have pursued, lots of questions I wish he would have asked, but hindsight is better than foresight and he just didn't. His lack of thoroughness is the reason we're still debating Brushy's voracity all these years later.
Bottom line, which I'm sure won't surprise you, I still think this story is probably true and is as close as anything we have on Brushy that amounts to a "smoking gun" kind of proof of his claim.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 26, 2012 14:27:32 GMT -5
Wayne with all due respect you don't know the history of this area. I'm not going into all the history but Phoenix was a short lived town in the area with a lot of history. It came about in about 1884 and lasted until 1889. If Brushy was Billy the Kid, he would have said Seven Rivers. That is where the real Billy the Kid went to and met the Jones.
Again, Brushy got a lot of his stories from J. Frank Dalton. Dalton and Brushy were in the Roswell, NM. area and knew people like Uncle Kit Carson. Remeber Him?
As for the Sedillo Girl story, What I am trying to tell you is ever since Burns wrote his book, there has been all kinds of stories. That story was around in the 40s and doesn't get much play today. I can't say if it's true or not but I look at the whole story and in a quick search did not find Frank Randolf that would have been able to double date with him. It's just like the Woods stories. One of the old uncles use to tell the kids stories about Billy the Kid and they grew up with them not knowing they were not true.
You have your right to think what you want but I say this with all due respect, you will never find the truth because you want to believe for what ever reason Brushy was Billy. You may find this hard to believe but I am after the truth and it would not matter to me if Brushy were Billy the Kid because as I told one lady a few years back, it would not change the histroy of the little town of Lincoln and that's the place I love. I am open minded but you are not even trying to find out real solid information.
Good luck on you hunt.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 26, 2012 17:32:26 GMT -5
nmjames,
With all due respect to you as well, I may not know as much about the history of the area but you do not know me. I don't know that it is truly possible for anyone interested in Brushy or the historic Billy to research the truth without any predisposed desire to find a certain outcome. Because we all come to this debate with an existing opinion. We either hope to find proof Brushy was a liar or we hope to find truth he was Billy The Kid. If we didn't have a desire one way or the other, I doubt there would be any motivation to research anything in the first place. All we can expect of each other is that we're both willing to be proven wrong and to remain civil toward each other. I appreciate that you've been civil but please do not question my ability or willingness to exercise reason.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 28, 2012 15:37:05 GMT -5
On the 1910 federal census there is a Frank Rendolph (possible misspelling of last name) born in 1867. If this is the Frank Randolph we're looking for, he would have been 13 or 14 in 1880-81. In the 1910 census he has a son named Andalicis who is 12 years old (born in 1888). Josephine Randolph Sanchez' father was Andalario, born in 1889. I need to research further to see if I can determine whether this is the correct Frank Randolph. Does anyone have anything that would help verify one way or the other?
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 28, 2012 16:38:07 GMT -5
On the 1930 census I find Frank Randolph and wife living right next door to his son Andelario and Andelario's daughter Josephine is 10 years old. Frank's birth is listed as about 1870. But the revealing part of all this is that it is now clear that this same Frank Randolph is also listed as born in 1867 and in 1869 on other census records. So we don't really know how old he would have been when he was double dating with Billy The Kid. He could have been around 13 or 14 and even though he was younger than Billy, the idea that he might have known about Billy dating the Sedillio girl is not a huge stretch at all.
So, my "reasoned" opinion at this point, the story is likely true or at the least there is no real reason to assume it is false. But I say again, whether the story is true or false, Brushy and Josephine both knew about it unless we want to call either Jim Tully or Judge Hefner a liar. I don't believe in calling "anyone" a liar without some solid proof of such accusation so I am still inclined to believe Josephine did indeed ask Brushy who he dated in San Patricio and Brushy did indeed answer correctly and the most logical explanation is that Brushy truly was Billy The Kid.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 28, 2012 23:22:47 GMT -5
Wayne,
If Andelario Randolph and Virginia Gill Sanchez was Josephine's father and mother. I know the family very well. I have a lot of history on the family and can get even more. You will never guess who she is kin to.
More later.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 29, 2012 23:33:08 GMT -5
I sent a email to a person that is kin to Josephine Randolf Sanches. It may take a couple of days but I will keep you posted. This is one I want to see what is said because Virginia''s mother's sister was at Billy the Kids funeral. William (Billy) Gill, Doc Scurlock and Charlie Bowdre were all married to sisters. William Gill was with the California Column. Josephine should have known Billy was killed because Manuela Bowdre lived until 1939 and lived in San Patricio.
And yes Wayne, Manuela did know that it was Billy that was killed. Also Tom Follaird (O'Follaird) may have had a wife (weather they were married I don't know) and she was said to have been at Billy's funeral with Manuela. (I have never been able to find her name and only found this in one place so I don't know if it's true about Tom's wife.)
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 30, 2012 0:19:40 GMT -5
nmjames,
Of course this is very interesting. So, I assume William Gill was related to Josephine Sanchez' Great Aunt who was at Billy's funeral? Can you tell us who you're sending the email to?
While we await an answer from your email let me ask a question here. Do we know whether Josephine's Great Aunt and/or Manuela for that matter actually saw the body at the funeral and verified it to be Billy The Kid? I realize the supporters of the accepted history don't see this as a possibility but I just have this picture of a closed coffin being buried with everyone present "assuming" the body inside was actually Billy. If I could negate that concept it would be a huge blow to my belief of Brushy's claim.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 30, 2012 7:05:09 GMT -5
No Wayne, I can't say who the person is. I'm sure you understand why.
As for the picture you have, if it is the one of the four men standing over what is said to have been Billy's coffin. (The one that was talked about on this site) That picture was not taken on July 14, 1881. It was taken years later, I think around 1932. If you have a picture taken on July 14, 1881, it would be worth a lot of money. (If you can prove it's not a fake)
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