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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 18, 2012 18:28:39 GMT -5
Darren,
No offense but the points you make have been out there for many years and I disagree with them. Indeed there was an Oliver Roberts born in 1879 but the census does not record the middle initial "L". This Oliver Roberts matches the later census records for Oliver Pleasant Roberts, not Oliver L. Roberts. I believe they were two different people.
Billy the Kid's eyes were described differently by various people who saw him. Some say his eyes were blue or clear blue while other say they had specks in them and still others say they were gray or grayish blue. Severo Gallegos is the only witness who literally saw the eyes of both Billy and Brushy and described the comparison. Brushy's eyes were what convinced Severo to state he was indeed the real Billy The Kid.
There is strong disagreement as to how the body of the man killed by Garrett was identified. Garrett himself said the body was kept in Maxwell's house all night so how could it have been prepared for burial as others say it was?
Indeed Billy Barlow likely never did exist since Brushy himself didn't seem to know the man's real name except that he was related to the Clements family. Billy Barlow was an alias. You won't find that name or the name "Billy The Kid" in any census records.
The story that Brushy claimed he rode with Jesse James is highly questionable. It comes from an article written by a news reporter who interviewed Brushy at the gathering for J. Frank Dalton where Brushy did indeed identify Dalton as the real Jesse James. I believe since Brushy said he'd known him for 68 years, the reporter just added the "rode with him" comment. Or maybe Brushy actually said that to the reporter. Even if he did, it must be understood at the time he didn't want anyone to know who he really was and so he would have to come up with some way he had known Jesse. If he said it, it was a cover to avoid having it discovered he was actually Billy The Kid.
Without citing them specifically here, there were a number of facts Brushy knew about Billy The Kid that were either not common knowledge at the time or were not known at all. So how did he so easily learn these things?
You ask for more evidence than the scars. There is a great deal more including the fact he was the same height, shoulder width, general body build, feet the same, ears the same, unusual hand structure the same, facial dimensions almost exactly the same, posture the same, high pitched voice the same, love of dancing the same, and yes the scars do matter. If he didn't get those scars from gunshot wounds then what would Oliver Pleasant Roberts or Ollie L Roberts for that matter, a lifelong residence of East Texas and VanZandt county be doing with multiple bullet and knife wounds that just happened to be in the same places Billy's would have been?
One more question. Let's say he was just a crazy old man looking for fame. How crazy would he have to be to risk being arrested and having a death sentence carried out? So he could enjoy a few moments of notoriety? I don't buy that. He didn't seem like an old man who had a death wish.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 18, 2012 20:52:41 GMT -5
Wayne,
Tell me all the scars Billy the Kid had and where they were. (Only until July 14, 1881.) I have read and been told by Brushy people but I would like some one to tell me how they know what scars and where on his body they were. Don't say hip because that came from Burns and Dr. Ealy stated different. Burns didn't get a lot of thing correct.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2012 11:57:10 GMT -5
Well let's see. I guess I'll have to work that out with a bipartisan committee after I get elected President! 7 points for your team and a 10 yard penalty for me.
All kidding aside, I didn't really say the scars matched the locations on Billy but I will "rephrase" what has been stated before and say Brushy had numerous scars in places that "may have" matched Billy's. For me, there's still the very important question of how a farmer who spent his whole life in and around VanZandt, Texas ended up with bullet and knife wounds on his body. How would you answer that?
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Oct 19, 2012 14:01:23 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcxgQ3yqPPIDoes this answer your question. Morrison described Roberts as the following " a wiry , 156 pound man or so and Blue-gray eyes dancing into my eyes , with right hand outstretched for a very firm shake." He also stated that " he was quite small, with well shaped fingers and wrists that were unusually large , forearms and shoulders heavy , forehead high , nose prominent." These were very similar to the descriptions of the kid also. If you do NOT think Brushy was the Kid, than I suggest you say that Morrison was helping Brushy fake the story also.
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Billy the Kid is my hero
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Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Oct 19, 2012 14:08:19 GMT -5
and yes. The Scars. As far as knife wounds go, there is no record or recollection by anyone that Billy the Kid was stabbed or cut up. Brushy saying he had a knife wound in the video must have been years after he escaped Pat Garrett. Billy was grazed by bullets at least twice. I read that the scars Brushy had were in the same place where Billy was known to have been wounded, you do not think Morrison would help Brushy lie about his story do you?
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2012 18:46:05 GMT -5
That is really a very important question and one I had pondered a great deal until I was given access to the files at the Billy The Kid museum in Canton, TX owned by Dr. Jannay Valdez. There I came across some letters written by Morrison in which he had no reason to lie. From those letters I became completely convinced that Morrison truly believed Brushy's story.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 20, 2012 8:34:01 GMT -5
All I can say for now is I have a different view on Morrison. I have been told a few things about what he did and how he knew J. Frank Dalton. When I am told something, I don't just take their word for it, I try to look into it. I know he didn't research Brushy the way it should have been done and why would a man move all the way to Texas to work with Brushy if there wasn't something in it for him?
Wayne, did you read the letter from Morrison to a Mrs. Everhard? To me all this Brushy story ties into J. Frank Dalton and others.
I have copies of a few of Morrison's letter and have other information on him.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 20, 2012 13:40:16 GMT -5
Yes I read a letter from Morrison to Everhardt. And a letter to C.L. Sonnichsen and a letter from Brushy himself to Dalton among others and I think the issue of "credibility" is huge in the whole ongoing debate over Brushy Bill. Brushy's credibility is dealt a possible death blow if we can't believe Morrison was credible. Because then we have likely explanations for a great deal of the evidence that supports Brushy being invalid. In fact, I believe Morrison was likely more credible than Brushy himself. Without that Brushy's claim begins to fall apart. So what about Brushy's credibility though? I happen to believe that much of what Brushy said in the Morrison interviews was either totally false or was greatly exaggerated. Does that mean Brushy was a liar? Possibly, but it could also mean he was suffering from the onset of Dimentia. For anyone who has had a loved one suffering from that, it is very easy to understand how a completely honest and trustworthy person can tell stories that are completely false or exaggerated. The mind begins to make associations that are confusing and the conversation becomes illogical, etc.
Morrison, on the other hand, was not old enough to be suffering from memory issues. If he told untruths, then he was a liar and a fraud and that becomes a major problem for Brushy. For example, was he lying about seeing those scars? In Hico, I met the son of the pharmacist who use to serve Brushy as a customer and when he says his father saw those scars, I find it hard to disbelieve him. When he says his father saw Brushy pull his hands out of handcuffs, I believe that too. Did Morrison coach Brushy regarding knowledge of Billy's life and friends? Possibly. But Brushy knew things about Billy's life that even Morrison couldn't have known. Did Morrison tell Brushy he was taking him to meet John Abel's wife, then walk in the room and ask him if he knew who she was? Why would he do that? He could just make the whole thing up instead. Why would Morrison write letters that sound so much like he was a true believer of Brushy's identity when he had no reason to think the letters would ever be made public? Unless he really did believe Brushy?
No, I believe Brushy was the real Billy The Kid who in his late 80's was suffering from loss of mental acuity to the extent he let go some tall tales about his past life and Morrison was an honest man making a less than adequate effort to prove Brushy's true identity.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 23, 2012 22:48:36 GMT -5
Wayne, I do understand Dimentia but if Morrison was honest, there had to be something that made him believe Brushy was Billy. As I have said many times, Brushy did not know that much about Billy the Kid, and got most everything wrong. And back to the scars. all I am asking is how did Morrison know just where Billy the Kid's scars were and where were they. I don't care if everyone in Hico saw Brushy's scars. Everyone has scars. I just want to know how Morrison knew every scar Billy the Kid had before July 14, 1881.
As for John Abel's wife, we have discussed this before. Brushy may have know Mrs. Abels and she him but in my research, it was after July 14, 1881. If you have found anything different let me know.
Now for the things Brushy knew about Billy's life that even Morrison couldn't have know, what were they. This is something else I have see brushy people state but I have only seen two or three and out of them there is only one that I see that may have something to it , however I feel Morrison found that info. out and used it to try and help his cause. As you have talked to the son of the pharmacist, I have talked to the grand children and great grand children of the people that Morrison used in his book and I get a very different story.
A question for you? Do you really feel that Pat Garrett, John Poe and all the others that were in Fort Sumner that night were all telling lies? In order for Brushy to have been Billy the Kid, They all had to be telling a great big Lie. I have a lot more respect for Pat Garrett and for sure John W. Poe and will back up why I do. You are also stating Pat Garrett was a murder.
Check the web site Texas by God. There is a man on there that has resarched Pat Garrett for years. Ask him about Garrett.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 23, 2012 23:49:12 GMT -5
Here's an excerpt from Brett Hall's book "The Real Billy The Kid".
>>According to a September 14, 1990 letter from Jim Tully of Ruidoso Downs, New Mexico to Judge Bob Hefner of Hico, Texas, Mr. Tully stated: "Years ago I read Brushy Bill, and felt that he indeed was Billy the Kid. When he was here around 1950 they had him visit old Severo Gallegos, who was the boy who led him his horse that day in Lincoln when he broke jail. Brushy Bill was taken to the home of Severo Gallegos and it so happened that Severo was gone to the grocery store to replenish his supply of tobacco. Now Severo's next door neighbor was one Josephine Randolf Sanches, granddaughter of Frank Randolf who lived in San Patricio when Billy the Kid was there. In fact, Frank and Billy dated two girls together. Josephine, whom I knew real well told me about this incident. She says that I'll just find out for myself if this man is really Billy the Kid. So she says to Billy the Kid, or rather Brushy Bill: "Who was your sweetheart in San Patricio?" With no hesitation whatsoever, Brushy Bill replies: "A Sedillios girl across the river." That was Billy's sweetheart alright, and who but Billy the Kid could recall that fact? Frank Randolf, a member of the California Column, and grandparent of Josephine, raised her there in San Patricio and had told her about his friendship with Billy the Kid. And they put out the flap that Brushy Bill could not talk any Spanish whatsoever. Well, Josephine conversed with him in Spanish and another Hispanic I knew in Lincoln said that he rattled off Spanish like a native."<<
Do you suppose Brushy got this information from Morrison? I think not!
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Post by nmjames on Oct 24, 2012 8:08:29 GMT -5
This story is funny!!!
Wayne did you doing any fact checking on this story? I don't have time now but I will tonight. I had seen the story on Brushy sites but never knew where it came from. It came from one of the Tully's!
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 24, 2012 9:47:03 GMT -5
I'll be looking forward to your information and maybe sharing in the humor but in the mean time I looked in the 1940 census and in Precinct 19, White Mountain, Lincoln, NM Josephine Sanchez was living in house #33 and Severo Gallegos was in house #40. The houses are numbered in the order they were visited by the census taker so two numbers that close together certainly could have been next door neighbors. Apparently this story came to Brett Hall through Judge Bob Hefner. I don't know who the Tullys are. Maybe you can shed some light. I can tell you I've met Judge Hefner and visited his home in Hico in 2006 and if he says he got such a letter from Tully then he got the letter. So what about Tully?
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Post by nmjames on Oct 24, 2012 18:24:27 GMT -5
Wayne,
Just a quick check in the book The California Column in New Mexico, there is no Frank Randolf listed so I don't think he was with the California Column. I also do not find him in the 1870 or 1880 census but I just did a quick check.
What I see on the Josephine Sanchez living in the White Mountains in 1940, she was 20 years old. I have also looked through a few family books I have and do not see anyone by that name that would be old enough to have been around when Billy the Kid was.
I will tell you more about who the Tully's are later as well as why I think the story is funny.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 24, 2012 20:02:50 GMT -5
If Josephine was 20 in 1940 and let's say her Grandfather was 20 when he knew Billy, then her father could have been born around 1900 give or take a few years and fathered her around 1920. So her age and story do not conflict. I'll see if I can find her father and grandfather on Ancestry.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 24, 2012 20:59:28 GMT -5
OK, I stand corrected. I miss read your post and thought Josephine Sanchez was living in San Patricio when Billy the Kid was there. I still don't see Frank Randolf there and I don't find a Frank Randolf in the California Column.
Now for the Tully's, Frank Coe's wife Helena Tully Coe was a Tully. I know a few of the Coe's and kin of the Tully's. I know Frank and George alway's thought that Billy was Killed. One of them tried to get his body moved to his ranch. If it's the same Jim or James Tully, he was born in 1907 I think.
Now for what I found funny about the story. I was thinking here is Severo Gallegos seeing a man that states he is Billy the Kid and if Gallegos thought he was the real Billy the Kid, he would just go to the store to get tobacco. I may have miss read that also as I was kind on in a hurry this morning.
As for the Sedillios girl, I have not seen this name as one of Billy's girls. I have heard stories for several years about a women that may have had a child by Billy from San Patricio but it was not Sedillios. Do you have a first name? I will keep looking for these names.
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