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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 29, 2009 10:50:09 GMT -5
One of the most compelling reasons to believe Billy was not killed in Fort Sumner in 1881 is the statement made by John Graham a.k.a. "Shotgun Collins" that he had helped dig the grave and the body they buried as Billy's was not Billy. Some have stated this was obviously a lie since the grave was dug by Vicente Otero and no one else. In fact, Jesus Silva did an interview in which he stated the names of the four well known participants and added there were "a few others."
It is entirely possible that Collins was telling the truth. He definitely knew Billy The Kid as he had ridden with the gang for awhile. He absolutely could have been in Fort Sumner at the time of the shooting and the fact that his name is not as widely known in Old West lore as many others could explain why he wasn't mentioned by name by any of the others who were there. Any ideas on this?
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Post by lacowboy on Sept 29, 2009 22:20:36 GMT -5
I lean toward Garrett being a bold faced liar. There seems to be no reason for Billy to be buried so quickly. I feel even stronger about it now than i did before because I believe according to the blueprints I have that an ice house existed in Ft Sumner. With his knowledge the weather excuse so many so called "historians" have used in the past seem moot to me now. IMO that gives even more substance to Brushy being Billy.
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Post by dollarshort on Oct 1, 2009 14:44:50 GMT -5
I think Garrett's actions following the shooting clearly indicate something less-than-honest occurred. The two coroner juries, neither filing an official report, the delay in Garrett collecting the reward, the speediness of the burial, the shifting accounts of Garrett, Poe, and other witnesses; all these indicate something was being covered up. The question, to me, is not if there was being something concealed, but what was it? Was it that Garrett shot the wrong man? Was it that Garrett did indeed kill the Kid, but did so in a less than commendable manner? That is where the real debate should focus.
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Post by lacowboy on Oct 1, 2009 20:23:49 GMT -5
Everything I have looked at tells me that Garrett shot the wrong man, and then proceeded to cover it up.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 1, 2009 20:47:30 GMT -5
I like your thinking on it dollarshort. I've no doubt at all that Garrett was hiding something. I believe it was McKinney that reportedly told a version years later where they had tied up Paulita Maxwell and shot the Kid from a hiding spot when he came to rescue the damsel in distress. While it is obvious to me that it couldn't have happened that way, I always feel it is human nature to base lies on partial truths. If you don't want to tell the whole truth about a thing, you start with the truth and twist it to suit your purposes. Therefore, my theory that Garrett, Poe and McKinney had discussed doing something like that to entrap the Kid and kill him, but when Garrett sat down to talk it over with Pete Maxwell, he got surprised by the arrival of Billy (Barlow or Bonney, pick one). It's just conjecture, I know, but it just may be what happened.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 1, 2009 20:59:06 GMT -5
I also agree with you lacowboy. Thanks for your posts. Simply put, Garrett's story was obviously a cover up. To think that Billy The Kid walked onto Maxwell's porch and saw two armed deputies and that he spoke to them in Spanish "Quien Es" doesn't make much sense. But to think that Poe spoke back to him in English (Poe didn't know Spanish at all) and the Kid then spoke to him again "still" in Spanish is completely illogical. If that had been Billy The Kid on that porch, there would have been somebody shot besides him. He might have taken a bullet but he wouldn't have been the only one.
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Post by lacowboy on Oct 1, 2009 22:03:38 GMT -5
I also agree with you lacowboy. Thanks for your posts. Simply put, Garrett's story was obviously a cover up. To think that Billy The Kid walked onto Maxwell's porch and saw two armed deputies and that he spoke to them in Spanish "Quien Es" doesn't make much sense. But to think that Poe spoke back to him in English (Poe didn't know Spanish at all) and the Kid then spoke to him again "still" in Spanish is completely illogical. If that had been Billy The Kid on that porch, there would have been somebody shot besides him. He might have taken a bullet but he wouldn't have been the only one. That's correct Billy was way to careful of a man to have fallen for that. He was also on the run and hiding from Garrett, to have just walked up on the porch with 2 armed men that he didn't know sitting there would not have been something Billy would have done. Nothing I have ever read would lead me to believe that Billy Bonney was that dumb. Hell I'm not that dumb and This is the 21st century and I am not wanted.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 1, 2009 22:38:47 GMT -5
And then there's the layout of the room to consider. Billy allegedly walked into the room and over to the bed, placing his right hand on the bed right near Garrett, almost touching him and still couldn't see him. The way that room was arranged Billy would have almost tripped over Garrett's lonnnnng legs and Garrett would have been sitting very near the window. There's no way Billy wouldn't have seen him immediately.
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Post by lacowboy on Oct 2, 2009 15:31:49 GMT -5
That whole story stinks to high heaven the way Garrett told it. On the other hand the way Brushy told it seems more logical to me. Then when Garrett noticed he had killed the wrong man quickly got his men in Maxwell's room. I read somewhere that they hunkered down in that room for a long time before coming out and letting anyone come near there. That the 2 coroner juries, the quick burial all done in secret all stinks. The proper way to have done it would have been to keep the body preserved until it could have been identified without a shadow of a doubt so Garrett could have collected the reward in a timely manor. I've heard people say it was too hot in July as an excuse as to why the quick burial. I say B.S. to that The existence of what I believe to be an ice house on the premises and the fact that the body could have been salted down all go to disprove that theory IMO. Of course the so called historians don't seem to be able to think logically. They seem to need to preserve the myth instead of even hear the truth.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 4, 2009 14:34:11 GMT -5
Here's another angle I think seals the deal on the cover up. Supposedly Billy The Kid stepped onto that porch outside Maxwell's bedroom and got the drop on the two deputies. He had them at gunpoint, allegedly! He is questioning who they are which means he is feeling threatened. Then rather than hold them at gunpoint until he gets an answer as to who they are, he decides to walk into Pete's bedroom and ask him!!!! Now that is just laughable to me. Call out to Pete from the porch, "Pete, who are these men out here?", possibly! But there's no way he would have given up his advantage when he was feeling threatened. Billy may have been a lot of things but stupid was not his middle name!!
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Post by curlybillgraham on Oct 5, 2009 6:53:41 GMT -5
All points above make a lot of sense. Have you ever took into consideration that Garrett and Billy were still Pals and it was all a plot. (If it had worked Garrett would have come out smelling like a rose and Billy would have a chance of a new life). John Collins warned Billy...Billy knew all about it and rode on. Yeah! Billy was too smart to ride into a trap.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 5, 2009 8:52:08 GMT -5
Yes I agree the idea of a plot to help Billy escape is very plausible. But since I believe Brushy was really the Kid and he told it as just a shooting of the wrong man by Garrett, then I tend to believe that is what happened. Also, McKinney said on one occasion that Garrett shot the wrong man and Poe said it that night. I've read that Poe also stated that belief later but I can't find the source for that. On the other hand, I am all about "possibilities" and it is "possible" that Brushy was the Kid "and" there was a plot. It that's the truth of it, then Brushy made up the whole Billy Barlow thing because it made him look more heroic. Billy Barlow could have been brought into Sumner by the Kid and sent to get the meat from Maxwell as a setup. I believe Brushy was Billy The Kid for many, many reasons, but I also believe he told Morrison some whoppers to suit his own purposes at the time. The more possibilities one considers the more complicated the whole thing gets and the more we realize how few facts we really know.
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Post by dollarshort on Oct 10, 2009 15:56:45 GMT -5
I find it hard to believe Garrett and Billy had any kind of collusion in the matter. Their status as friends had long since fallen by the wayside by this point. Garrett had killed Billy's two closest friends less than a year previous. True, it can be argued he didn't fire the fatal bullets into them, but that is inconsequential. He still set things in motion which led to their deaths. Furthermore, he had set Billy on deck to be executed as well. I cannot even fathom the two of them agreeing to a meeting in which a conspiracy plan could even be concocted.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 10, 2009 21:53:08 GMT -5
I think the whole idea that Billy and Garrett may have conspired to allow Billy to escape is based on the logic that in order for Garrett to be confident in his cover up of having killed the wrong man, he would have to first get a promise from Billy to leave and never show up again. But that logic fails to consider that Garrett did not let Billy go on purpose. He stumbled into the situation by accidentally killing the wrong man, at which point he really had no choice but to cover it up and "hope" Billy would just disappear.
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Post by kidcanuck on Jan 8, 2011 21:01:03 GMT -5
With all that I have read I lean towards the fact that Garrett shot the wrong man due to rushed judgement knowing that he could not outduel Billy The Kid. Over the years the truth tends to come out due to guilty conciences, and this case to me is no different.
Garrett, Poe and Mckinney have to many differences in their stories of what happened the night the Kid was apparantely brought down. Then as the years went on the guilt that the wrong man met his death started to take it's toll on these lawmen.
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