Post by Wayne Land on Apr 18, 2012 12:15:04 GMT -5
Thanks WOW! I've always tried to be objective in my opinions and begin by accepting that nothing has been proven regarding that night in Ft. Sumner. The only way we have of finding the truth is to discard anything that doesn't make sense and see what is left. Brushy was Billy The Kid alright. I'd love to find undeniable proof someday and I'm still searching for it.
Post by Wayne Land on Sept 24, 2012 9:43:24 GMT -5
Exactly! There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Billy The Kid was not killed by Garrett on that July night in Fort Sumner. Even if Poe did not know Billy's voice and face (and I believe he did know it) then to suggest that a qualified lawman like Poe would allow an unknown person to step into Maxwell's room allegedly with a gun in his hand and not try to follow him in or say anything at all to alert Garrett is preposterous. The story says Billy went into the room and walked over to the bed putting his hand on the bed almost touching Garrett and asked Maxwell who were the men outside. While all that is happening, we're suppose to believe that Poe just stood on the porch saying and doing absolutely nothing. Again I say, preposterous!
The only explanation for Poe's actions is that he absolutely did not believe the man was a threat to Garrett. That gives us two very important likely facts. One, he didn't have a clue the man was Billy The Kid and two, the man was not brandishing a gun.
I didn't know Poe was with Garrett at Stinking Springs, but that would leave no question the man killed in Fort Sumner was not Billy and when Poe told Garrett he'd killed the wrong man, he wasn't just guessing that. He knew it to be fact.
Post by chivato1011 on Sept 25, 2012 19:31:58 GMT -5
Wayne I am incorrect. I thought poe was stinking springs. But your right, I have been in law enforcement 20 years no way I would let somebody armed walk up on a fellow officer. I also read where poe stated to pat he had killed the wrong man. Zwhat i really find interesting is the similarity of brushy and kid in photos. Ie thier shoulders and bandanas. Brushy gad too manu scars and knee way to much info. What really seals the dea for me is the picture of joe antrim in his later years ad compared to brushy. They slmost very identical.
Post by Wayne Land on Sept 25, 2012 21:36:31 GMT -5
Hey, we all make typos from time to time. I could read what you wrote just fine. I agree there is a resemblance between the older Joe Antrim and the older Brushy. But the thing that sealed the deal for me is the physical traits, the eyewitness ID's and the logic. Nice to have you on the board and I'll look forward to your posts.
If you haven't read John Poe's book and the whole story you need to. He tells you what happen on July 14, 1881. Several of the Brushy people like to use just the part where Poe said, Pat you killed the wrong man. Read what Poe said about that night and then remember that was a different time and place. Everyone carried guns back then. After you read what Poe had to say, tell me what you would have done. Another thing about John W. Poe is it is said by most everyone that he was a honest man.
I had read Poe's account of what happened that night several times but didn't have a copy of it on hand, and thinking his book would provide more context I just this morning purchased it in eBook form and read the entire book (not very long). I would encourage anyone who hasn't read it to do so but again I'm left with several nagging questions about his account and how it conflicts with that of others including Garrett himself.
1) Poe doesn't mention them overhearing the Kid in the Orchard as Garrett says they did and I find it difficult to believe he wouldn't think that was an important part of the story. I've always suspected Garrett made that up to lend credence to his claim the victim was indeed William H. Bonney.
2) Poe says soon after the shooting the body was given to some women who carried it to the carpenter shop and laid it out on a bench for a wake. He says that he, Garrett and McKinney then stayed in Maxwell's house the rest of the night for fear of retribution from Billy's friends. But Judge Seguro's report says he arrived, appointed a jury and found the body in a room in Maxwell's house. He didn't say it was in the carpenter's shop. I'm not saying Seguro lied. Rather I suspect the coroner's report was a fake and because Seguro put nothing in his own records about having even been involved, I question whether he even went to Fort Sumner at all.
3) Jesus Silva said he and Deluvina went in right after the shooting and determined the body was Billy's. Poe says "upon examining the body, 'we' found it to be that of Billy The Kid". He says nothing about Silva or Deluvina going in first.
Let me clarify that I don't necessarily think Poe lied about anything he said in his book. But his statements, if all true, help to show that others lied about the events of that evening. That supports the concept there was a cover up by Garrett and an attempt to protect Billy's escape by his friends. Additionally, there is nothing in Poe's book that convinces me he wasn't correct in his initial assumption that the fellow who was killed that night was not Billy. That doesn't necessarily mean "he" participated in the cover up. It could simply mean he was deceived by Garrett and never knew it. I don't believe Jesus Silva's story. I don't think he or Deluvina were in the room right afterwards as he claimed.
Last Edit: Oct 8, 2012 16:03:44 GMT -5 by Wayne Land
Other than Poe not talking about the kid in the orchard show me where he and Garrett's account conflict. I have both of them side by side and I don't see what you are talking about.
Poe's account is more straight to the point as he was answering a request from Charlies Goodnight.
Garrett's was a book by him and Ash Upson. Garrett was being called a coward because he didn't give Billy a chance, so he told more of the story.
As for the women taking the body to the carpenter shop, could it be that they did take it there, clean Billy up and dress him holding a wake. The next morning they moved the body to the main house as a coffin was being built in the carpenter shop, Justice of the Peace Alejandro Segura came to the Maxwell house named Milnor Rudulph and the others a jury to investigate the matter and did infact view Billy in a room in the Maxwell house. Or could they have gone to the carpenter shop and since it belong to Maxwell called it a room in his house.
As I have said, it was a different time and a different way of doing things. They didn't have a team of experts taking measurements, checking finger prints and all the things we do today.
When Billy killed Bell and Olinger in Lincoln, they moved them to a building behind the courthouse and then called the jury to the building. There are several different stories as to what happen that day, but the fact is J.W. Bell and Bob Olinger were killed and no one questions that.
The fact is that all the main people that were in Fort Sumner, i.e. Garrett, Poe, McKinney, the Maxwells and so on, said it was Billy the Kid that was killed. I don't think Poe would lie for Garrett and I don't think Garrett would let Billy go. I think Garrett did kill Billy July 14, 1881.
I am at work right now and don't have a copy of Garrett's book in front of me but based on my best recollection of what is in it, I can point out some additional conflicts between Garrett's and Poe's versions of what happened that night.
1) Garrett's version makes no mention of Poe's drunken snitch, and maintains that the only source supporting Billy's presence in Sumner was Brazil. 2) According to Poe, Billy did not "spring" into the room, but rather slowly backed into it, his focus being centered on the two deputies on the porch. 3) While Poe initially concurs with Garrett on the pistol being a .41, he later claims it was a .38, and that he only saw it after Garrett entered the room first and returned with it. Remember Poe's book states "we" went in and discovered the body was that of Billy The Kid. 4) If I'm remembering correctly, Garrett said he and his deputies remained in the room "with the body" all night. Poe's version states the body was taken by friends to a carpenter's shop "a very short time after the shooting."
Again, I'm not of the opinion Poe lied about all that. I'm more inclined to believe his story is closer to the truth than that of Garrett, Silva, and the fake coroner's report. But regardless of who stuck more closely to the facts, there's just too many contradictions between alleged eye witnesses. And that points to a cover up. BTW, as I've stated before as well, I don't think Brushy even told the whole truth about what happened that night. I think he exaggerated the number of shots fired. I guess I'm just trying to make the point here that it isn't any "one" specific thing that anyone said or didn't say that has me convinced Brushy was the real deal. It's when you put it all together and look at the photos and read the eye witness identifications, listen to the audio of Brushy's voice, and on and on. Considering all of it in bulk I can't conclude anything other than Brushy Bill Roberts was indeed the one and only alias William H. Bonney, "Billy The Kid."
Last Edit: Oct 9, 2012 12:08:38 GMT -5 by Wayne Land
My question is this: Did either Poe or Mckinney, in later years, ever explain how "Billy" got into the room where Garrett was? I know there are theories on this site - but did either of those two ever explain it themselves?
Post by Billy the Kid is my hero on Oct 9, 2012 14:49:41 GMT -5
McKinney never spoke publicly about the shooting, although various second-hand sources claim that, in private, he allegedly told three different versions, to a friend and family members. The first was that he, Garrett, and McKinney tied up Billy's girlfriend to bait Billy, then Garrett shot him from ambush. The second was that Kip himself shot someone, only that it was the wrong man. The final was that Garrett killed the wrong man on the porch of Pete Maxwell's house, and that the real Kid escaped. I spoke years ago with an unnamed friend of the Mckinney family, and he said that Mckinney -- in later years -- is said to have admitted that Billy the Kid survived.
Poe was looking into the steeling of Texas cattle and horses. He had a man tell him he overheard two men talking and that Billy the Kid was in the Ft. Sumner area. Poe went to Garrett and told him. Pat didn't act like he wanted to check it out. In Garrett's book he states that Maneul Brazil had sent him a letter telling him the kid was in the area and he was afraid the Kid knew his part in the capture at Stinking Springs and was afraid of him. (Some people think it was Maxwell that was letting Garrett know Billy was in the area.) There were people that didn't think Garrett was even looking for the Kid and Garrett address this in his book.
I see nothing wrong with both saying how it happen in their own words.
What different does it make weather Billy "Spring" into the room or backed into the room. Everyone sees things differently and Garrett was writting a book.
As for Poe and Garrett on the .41, I have never seen where Poe stated it was a .38. Even if he did, a Colt Thunderer and Lighting looks alike. Again you will need to show me where Poe made the statement about not seeing the gun until Garrett entered the room first and returned with it.
I have seen you call the coroner's report a fake two time. I do not know where you are getting that from. I have see a picture of the orginal Coroner's report and even have a book with a picture of it. If you still have Morrisons book, he has it in their and I don't remember him ever saying it was a fake. I also have a letter he wrote to a editor about the Coroner's report. His big thing seems to be that Garrett didn't file it in San Miguel Co. In his book he states as to why. He knows Garrett and Romero had trouble. Garrett took it straight to Santa Fe. to acting Gov. Ritch. (Page 114 and 115 Morrison's Book.) in part: as also was presented a statement of the proceedings and verdict of a coroner's jury at Ft. Sumner in San Miguel County upon the body of said Bonney. (July 21, 1881.)
Now for your photos. As I have told you before, I do not see what you see. I use to draw a lot and drew Billy. Billy does not have the square chin Brushy does and I see other things I do not agree with. I also know of four or five different computer comparison and they state that Billy and Brushy do not match. The only one I know of that state they do is the one in Austin.
The last one is hard for me because I am not going to state who told me what and what was said but the eye witness identifications means nothing to me. I have my reasons.
McKinney talked to a English Report in the early 1900s. (I think 1909) He told the story that they tied Paulita up and shot Billy. The other two stories I don't remember. It seems like one of his kin was said to have made the statement that Kip said they didn't kill Billy but everything I have ever seen, he stated they killed Billy. In a old Carlsbad Newspaper, He stated that Garrett would hate him for saying so, but Garrett cried like a baby when he killed Billy.
I have talked to his kin and none of the one's I have visited with have said anything about Billy not being killed. Kip killed a man by the name of Bob Edwards on May 8, 1881 near Carlsbad, NM. I don't know if that story got mixed in with the death of Billy. I have a picture of Edwards grave out in a remote area.