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Post by chivato88 on Apr 21, 2021 17:28:11 GMT -5
Why would people in Lincoln pointed the finger to Sam Corbet,the one responsible for the escape, it's been said by people who were there at the time, he is got to be involed some how
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Post by RonBk on Apr 22, 2021 0:59:39 GMT -5
Mr Sederwall found a large blood trace at the top of the stairs - where Brushy said he accidentally shot Bell when he was pulled down by being chained to the floor.Bell would not have unchained BTK from the floor without Olinger but it may have given Bell a false sense of security knowing his prisoner's leg irons were also chained to the floor as if he were behind bars.. All things must have happened in a very short time frame between the killings of the two deputies, so I wonder if Billy really was chained to the floor. If he was still chained to the floor when pulling the trigger on deputy Bell, how could he move himself to the position by the window fast enough to shoot Bob? Perhaps if he got the keys from Bob at the same time he took his gun? In that case, why was there a need to use a file? Could there have been two different keys, one for unlocking the leg irons from the floor and one for removing them from his legs? Also, with both deputies dead, why was it not possible to just get the keys from them instead of going through the trouble of filing or getting someone hacking away with an axe?
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Post by chivato88 on Apr 22, 2021 4:08:43 GMT -5
I just dont buy it and wont, your theory dont make sense, you guys can back yourselfs up thats fine, but you put aside and ignored a very important detail, are you saying that Sederwall is a 100% right? I hope not
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Post by RonBk on Apr 22, 2021 4:48:35 GMT -5
Perhaps the leg irons did cause Billy to trip and fall even though they werent attached to the floor?
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Post by kerry on Apr 22, 2021 7:27:16 GMT -5
It was always said Miller had a chest wound - Sederwall's autopsy confirmed that he not only had a chest wound but that it matched the wound said to be inflicted by Garrett.. John Miller was not a fraud - he was part of the story. If it wasn't for all the loose ends and inconsistencies - we wouldn't be having these discussions and Sederwall would have nothing to work with -where would he start if he went after the cop killer responsible for Pat Garrett's death ?
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Post by RonBk on Apr 22, 2021 8:57:02 GMT -5
It was always said Miller had a chest wound - Sederwall's autopsy confirmed that he not only had a chest wound but that it matched the wound said to be inflicted by Garrett.. John Miller was not a fraud - he was part of the story. If it wasn't for all the loose ends and inconsistencies - we wouldn't be having these discussions and Sederwall would have nothing to work with -where would he start if he went after the cop killer responsible for Pat Garrett's death ? So whats your take on Miller? Do you think he might have been the same person as "Billy Barlow"?
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Post by kerry on Apr 22, 2021 10:07:52 GMT -5
Yes Ron - my opinion is Miller was the cattle detective that Silva mentioned in a newspaper article as making a nuisance of himself at the time -the same interview in the 1920's where he states BTK was shot with a Winchester rifle.... l think Miller was an undercover Chisum gunman unknown to the lawmen and after the bounty.I don't think Garrett ever knew that Miller survived otherwise he would have been looking over his shoulder a lot more than he did .Apparently he went out of his way to ensure BTK's brother knew he had not killed BTK.The Miller story is a good one and it was said that it was only when drunk that he sometimes claimed to be BTK -which for Pat Garrett's purposes and history -he was and was buried at Fort Sumner in 1881.
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Post by tboor74 on Apr 22, 2021 10:51:51 GMT -5
Is there any evidence that Garrett told Joseph Antrim he hadn't killed BTK? I know they met, talked and parted with a handshake but I've never come across any records of what was said.
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Post by kerry on Apr 22, 2021 20:17:31 GMT -5
In the saga of BTK -the only detailed uncontradicted first hand evidence is from Brushy himself...even Garrett's account of what happened in Maxwell's bedroom is different from Poe's. All other evidence is interesting hearsay -neither Garrett Poe or Siringo had,any first hand knowledge of BTK or of the LCW .they just repeated the official narrative to fill out their accounts of the BTK story.Paulita Maxwell's account however does relate only to her experiences in Fort Sumner and De Baca county.So if you are looking for evidence you may not find it...Sederwall's skeleton with a hole through the shoulder blade is not based on human accounts and once someone gets Brushy's DNA -that will be a step forward but otherwise there is individual common sense to fall back on -right or wrong...the DNA standard of proof may become available if
what Brushy didn't say comes to light but otherwise it is an unrealistic expectation.
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Post by RonBk on Apr 22, 2021 21:30:54 GMT -5
Yes Ron - my opinion is Miller was the cattle detective that Silva mentioned in a newspaper article as making a nuisance of himself at the time -the same interview in the 1920's where he states BTK was shot with a Winchester rifle.... l think Miller was an undercover Chisum gunman unknown to the lawmen and after the bounty.I don't think Garrett ever knew that Miller survived otherwise he would have been looking over his shoulder a lot more than he did .Apparently he went out of his way to ensure BTK's brother knew he had not killed BTK.The Miller story is a good one and it was said that it was only when drunk that he sometimes claimed to be BTK -which for Pat Garrett's purposes and history -he was and was buried at Fort Sumner in 1881. I agree that is an interesting theory. One thing that is being listed as evidence pointing towards Miller not being the Kid is the fact he had a wagon and some cattle with him when he got married in Las Vegas in August and when did he have time to acquire those. But if he was not Billy but a cattle detective who were mistaken for being Billy it makes more sense and perhaps he had acquired those cattle already before the shooting in Fort Sumner. But to me it seems like kind of a stretch that he was shot and thought to be dead and then walked away while someone else was placed in the coffin. Perhaps the truth could rather be closer to the story Miller alledgedly told one of his friends; that he had received the chestwound a week before the shooting and was recovering in Fort Sumner at the time of the shooting and had no part in it. That could explain why he took upon the habit of identifying himself as the Kid. He was there when the shooting ocurred and was lethally wounded himself at the same time, so it became natural for him to take on the persona of the Kid?
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Post by kerry on Apr 23, 2021 0:10:59 GMT -5
The story I follow is that Pete Maxwell and his business partner gave him a horse and waggon with supplies and about twenty hwad of cattle - accompanied by his future wife he was to go as far west as possible...shows the generous nature of the Maxwells for which they were known.
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Post by RonBk on Apr 23, 2021 5:40:20 GMT -5
Thats interesting, where did you find this info? I guess its also possible that Miller was the one being shot by Garrett and that they did not recognize he was still alive, things like that are not common but they do happen. And if it happened like that and Miller was one and the same person as Brushy called Barlow, than Miller had actually been hanging out with Brushy which could explain why he knew a lot about Billy. Also if he was the one being shot that night its understandable he later started to identify himself as the Kid. But if this is true, who do you believe replaced Miller in the coffin?
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Post by kerry on Apr 23, 2021 15:27:40 GMT -5
It was often said that the body of a Mexican sheep header who had recently died - went into the coffin. ... Perhaps more bizarre was Pat Garrett's reaction when a hoax quickly surfaced with Billy's trigger finger. Pat made a 100 mile dash to Fort Sumner's cemetery to ensure the grave hadn't been disturbed Again when a spate of rustling broke out in Texas said to be the BTK gang ... -Pat dashes to Texas on his own vendetta ride -gets to be a Texas Ranger captain for a few weeks to quell any such thoughts as BTK rising from the grave... Very strange - if he knew BTK was dead - why would he worry ? why did he care about what was happening in Texas?
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Post by RonBk on Apr 23, 2021 16:48:11 GMT -5
Because he knew the kid was still alive. He was a desperate man, anxious not to be called on his big scam. And then this anxiety passed down through the generations, his descendents equally terrified that Pat Garrett's bluff should be revealed and their familys good reputation annihilated. So they gathered all their strength to stop the truth at the meeting with governor Mabry. A damn shame. Its people like Morrison that really has something to say that no one listens to. The winnner writes the history books, and Billy the kid was no winner, just like the indians wasnt.
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Post by RonBk on Jan 1, 2022 16:41:35 GMT -5
In that photo looking real close the man they say is Billy looks to me to have a somewhat of a curly looking beard?, but it could be another trick of the eye? I’m not sure it was ever positively determined that Dave Rudabaugh had gotten beheaded in Mexico?, there was another alternative as to what could have happened to him, it was him leaving Mexico with a herd of cattle headed to Montana where he lived a normal life, married and fathered three daughters. and later died an alcoholic in Oregon in 1928, I don’t know if there’s any merit to that story though? The photo of Rudabaugh in the lower left of the group above I believe was from the lot of photos bought from a man that claimed they were from Sallie Chisum’s photo album and the owner had many tintypes believed to be Regulators and the Chisum family, I don’t know how he determined that one was Rudabaugh?, he may be right that it was him, but how Sallie Chisum got a hold of Dave Rudabaugh’s tintype is a little puzzling to me, I didn’t think he worked for Chisum or Tunstall, or that he fought in the LCW?, I was thinking he joined Billy’s gang of Rustlers later?, I wonder if the photo believed to be him in that Sallie Chisum lot could have been misidentified? I have seen some comments about this online that Rudabaugh was never killed in Parral Mexico, along with the claim that the severed head on a stick photos are from a completely different occasion. Anyway I did some digging and came across this article from january 1886 that states Rudabaugh was recently gunned down in Parral Mexico and his head paraded around on a pole. According to the article Dave blasted two persons before being struck by a bullet himself and the incident took place at a meat market. chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn92070445/1886-01-21/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1886&index=1&rows=20&words=Mexico+Parral&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1886&proxtext=Parral+mexico&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
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