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Post by leeb on Apr 13, 2021 11:16:43 GMT -5
I dont think Garrett and Billy were that close for Garrett to plan is escape, remember he shot Bowdre and O'Folliard from ambush thinking that it was Billy. He (Garrett) treated him well while he was in custody but thats it. I also think that Sam Corbet planted the gun in the outhouse. Maybe Billy said he didnt use the gun just to protect Corbet from getting into trouble? Garrett put is friendship aside with Billy the moment he put the badge on I'm with you on this one |
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Post by RonBk on Apr 13, 2021 13:17:15 GMT -5
I dont think Garrett and Billy were that close for Garrett to plan is escape, remember he shot Bowdre and O'Folliard from ambush thinking that it was Billy. He (Garrett) treated him well while he was in custody but thats it. I also think that Sam Corbet planted the gun in the outhouse. Maybe Billy said he didnt use the gun just to protect Corbet from getting into trouble? Garrett put is friendship aside with Billy the moment he put the badge on I'm with you on this one You may be right about this, or you may as well be wrong since there is no solid proof either way. I do agree that if Garrett was actually aiming for Billy when he shot Bowdre and Ofolliard, that would suggest there was no strong bond of friendship between himself and Billy. At least not at that time. But how can we really be certain that Garrett was aiming for Billy? That kind of detail is really something that is not easily proven beyond reasonable doubt in my opinion. Even if those events had taken place yesterday instead of 140 years ago, it would be extremely difficult to prove if a shooter was aiming for a different person or not. |
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Post by leeb on Apr 14, 2021 11:52:13 GMT -5
I dont think Garrett and Billy were that close for Garrett to plan is escape, remember he shot Bowdre and O'Folliard from ambush thinking that it was Billy. He (Garrett) treated him well while he was in custody but thats it. I also think that Sam Corbet planted the gun in the outhouse. Maybe Billy said he didnt use the gun just to protect Corbet from getting into trouble? Garrett put is friendship aside with Billy the moment he put the badge on we both think Mr Corbet either placed the gun or arranged for it to be in the privy. I don't believe old brushy's tales but you lean that way. How comes the fibber forgot to mention this? |
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Post by kerry on Apr 14, 2021 12:35:55 GMT -5
Brushy said he disarmed Bell while playing cards and while still being chained to the floor...he never left the top floor of the House -surely Bell would have delayed any trip to the privy until Olinger returned -surely if BTK got a gun from the privy .. he would have immediately disarmed Bell and would never have gone back into the House where he would have been trapped..he would have two pistols already - I believed the official record showed only two .44 Colts with gun belts taken from the armory upstairs - no rifles or shotguns missing.
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Post by leeb on Apr 14, 2021 13:44:10 GMT -5
Brushy said he disarmed Bell while playing cards and while still being chained to the floor...he never left the top floor of the House -surely Bell would have delayed any trip to the privy until Olinger returned -surely if BTK got a gun from the privy .. he would have immediately disarmed Bell and would never have gone back into the House where he would have been trapped..he would have two pistols already - I believed the official record showed only two .44 Colts with gun belts taken from the armory upstairs - no rifles or shotguns missing. Bells gun was on his person when his body was found. |
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Post by kerry on Apr 14, 2021 15:05:28 GMT -5
During the escape - BTK sent the horse he had taken back to Lincoln and continued on foot to a safe house. He also put one pistol and a leg iron in a tree -his friend later went back to find it according to his story....I think this was Bell's gun.BTK kept the two .44's and two month's later -Brushy said he took two guns to investigate the shots fired at the Maxwell house.
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Post by RonBk on Apr 14, 2021 15:34:55 GMT -5
I dont think Garrett and Billy were that close for Garrett to plan is escape, remember he shot Bowdre and O'Folliard from ambush thinking that it was Billy. He (Garrett) treated him well while he was in custody but thats it. I also think that Sam Corbet planted the gun in the outhouse. Maybe Billy said he didnt use the gun just to protect Corbet from getting into trouble? Garrett put is friendship aside with Billy the moment he put the badge on we both think Mr Corbet either placed the gun or arranged for it to be in the privy. I don't believe old brushy's tales but you lean that way. How comes the fibber forgot to mention this? First of all, just because you think something happened a certain way dont make it a fact. So you cant really blame Brushy for forgetting to mention the gun in the privy. You dont know there was a gun there. Secondly, if there really was a gun in the privy, your question is valid and deserves consideration. I guess there could be a couple of possible explanations in that case. Brushy could have had various reasons for not telling everything he remembered. Perhaps due to feeling ashamed about some things he did or to protect someone elses reputation. Or due to old age and failure to remember correctly. Or simply because he had an old habit of making things up. Endless possibilities. |
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Post by chivato88 on Apr 14, 2021 17:08:18 GMT -5
I dont think Garrett and Billy were that close for Garrett to plan is escape, remember he shot Bowdre and O'Folliard from ambush thinking that it was Billy. He (Garrett) treated him well while he was in custody but thats it. I also think that Sam Corbet planted the gun in the outhouse. Maybe Billy said he didnt use the gun just to protect Corbet from getting into trouble? Garrett put is friendship aside with Billy the moment he put the badge on we both think Mr Corbet either placed the gun or arranged for it to be in the privy. I don't believe old brushy's tales but you lean that way. How comes the fibber forgot to mention this? Hard to say, Billy's version to John P Meadows didnt included a trip to the outhouse. Some people in Lincoln knew that Sam Corbet was involved according to Lily Klasner and Col. Fulton. He did not put the gun himself but I think some kid did if I remember correctly. The reason I think he was really involved its because of the letter that Alex McSween wrote to Tunstall's parents saying that some people in Lincoln wanted to avenged their son's death and one of those people was Sam Corbet( weird that the Kid's name was not mentionned). In my book Corbet was a Lincoln warrior fighting on the McSween side all the way not actually killing anyone but tried to help anyway he can. Bottom line Billy never mentionned that Corbet helped him escape nor did Brushy, like I said before maybe Billy(Brushy) stayed quiet about Corbet to protect him. John P Meadows was a friend of Billy and Garrett as well, he could have told Garrett that Corbet helped Billy, and he (Corbet) would found himself in deep trouble. |
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Post by leeb on Apr 15, 2021 13:17:18 GMT -5
Brushy said he disarmed Bell while playing cards and while still being chained to the floor...he never left the top floor of the House -surely Bell would have delayed any trip to the privy until Olinger returned -surely if BTK got a gun from the privy .. he would have immediately disarmed Bell and would never have gone back into the House where he would have been trapped..he would have two pistols already - I believed the official record showed only two .44 Colts with gun belts taken from the armory upstairs - no rifles or shotguns missing. the reason Billy didn't immediately pulled a gun on bell was because he never actually wanted to hurt him. Once inside if bell followed Billy's demands then he would've come out unscathed. |
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Post by RonBk on Apr 18, 2021 23:32:29 GMT -5
I agree with Kerry here. If Billy really did get a gun from the privy he probably would have came out shooting instantly. There would be no reason for him to wait. So it makes much more sense it happened the way Brushy said. And remember that even though Brushy might have felt bad about killing Bell, there is no reason to believe he would have hesitated when pulling the trigger. After all both these men were holding him as a prisoner scheduled to be executed. It was either him or them.
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Post by chivato88 on Apr 19, 2021 8:47:47 GMT -5
There is a thread already created on this subject in the Unanswered questions area, we should continue the discussion over there 😀. Its a bit my fault sorry
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Post by leeb on Apr 21, 2021 12:22:24 GMT -5
I agree with Kerry here. If Billy really did get a gun from the privy he probably would have came out shooting instantly. There would be no reason for him to wait. So it makes much more sense it happened the way Brushy said. And remember that even though Brushy might have felt bad about killing Bell, there is no reason to believe he would have hesitated when pulling the trigger. After all both these men were holding him as a prisoner scheduled to be executed. It was either him or them. why would you come out all guns blazing and let everyone know what's going on? BTK was to clever for that. Brushy's version is complete fabrication. Let's not forget Bell had his gun all the time. Billy did not take Bells gun. That is fact. |
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Post by kerry on Apr 21, 2021 15:48:53 GMT -5
I don't think there is any record of Bell's pistol being on his body... why didn't he turn and fight back instead of running for the door?
Brushy fired off his guns outside the Maxwell porch after he had been hit in the head by Mckinney and needed to cover his escape - it worked because the Lawmen rushed inside the Maxwell house lounge in fear of attack by the community....
Brushy's escape from the Maxwell house was no different from BTK's escape from that of McSween..
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Post by RonBk on Apr 21, 2021 16:20:13 GMT -5
Good point Kerry. Bell would probably have fired his gun on Billy if it had been readily available in his hand or holster. The fact he did not fire at Billy actually suggests even more things happened the way Brushy said it did. I guess its possible also that Bell could have had the gun but was to scared to fight back and tried to make a run for the stairs instead, but that scenario seems less likely. I dont mean to say its unlikely Bell was scared, he most probably was, but also it seems likely he would have fired back at least once if he had been armed.
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Post by kerry on Apr 21, 2021 17:03:19 GMT -5
Mr Sederwall found a large blood trace at the top of the stairs - where Brushy said he accidentally shot Bell when he was pulled down by being chained to the floor.Bell would not have unchained BTK from the floor without Olinger but it may have given Bell a false sense of security
knowing his prisoner's leg irons were also chained to the floor as if he were behind bars..
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