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Post by MissyS on Apr 2, 2021 11:52:05 GMT -5
I was wondering what the real reason was why Billy hung around Fort Sumner instead of leaving the territory?, it may not have been to see a sweetheart as the popular belief, or to earn money to flee to Mexico as someone said Billy told them, but the real reason may have been to find and kill Barney Mason? According to Paco Anaya in his interview he said Billy told him that he and Billy Wilson swore they were going to stay around till they killed Barney Mason. In the May 12, 1881 Las Vegas Gazette it tells of Billy being seen in Fort Sumner riding a horse stolen from Bell’s ranch and it mentions the belief that Billy was in Fort Sumner to have been looking for Barney Mason who was also in Fort Sumner maybe for retribution? Reading about Barney Mason’s actions it’s understandable why Billy would want to seek revenge, Barney Mason played a role in his capture, and he used to be a member of Billy’s gang of Rustlers before turning informant to Pat Garrett’s posse. It may be that Billy had planned for Garrett to come to Fort Sumner and bring Barney Mason with him, then he can ambush one or both, this is just a guess? It seems Billy wasn’t concerned about warnings his friends gave him concerning the danger of Garrett tracking him there, he was warned to leave town but he hung around without fear, it was risky to do so, and Billy was a smart kid. I wonder also if Billy’s friends were so concerned about him being in danger hanging around town and they knew Billy was trying to get up enough money to flee, then why didn’t they just give him money so he can high tail it to Mexico? Could it be that Billy was really hanging around Fort Sumner to seek revenge on Barney Mason? www.angelfire.com/mi2/billythekid/mason.html
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Post by RonBk on Apr 2, 2021 23:44:18 GMT -5
It would make sense if Billys reason for lingering in Fort Sumner was to kill Mason. Either that or for the cause of a girl. The theory that seems least likely to me is that he stayed just to work up some money. Either way he probably concluded it was safe to stay and the reason for that could be he knew already Garrett had no intention to set out to kill him. Perhaps due to the fact Garrett orchestrated the escape from Lincoln, planting the gun and going out of town for a few days.
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Post by Elwood on Apr 3, 2021 21:40:59 GMT -5
It would make sense if Billys reason for lingering in Fort Sumner was to kill Mason. Either that or for the cause of a girl. The theory that seems least likely to me is that he stayed just to work up some money. Either way he probably concluded it was safe to stay and the reason for that could be he knew already Garrett had no intention to set out to kill him. Perhaps due to the fact Garrett orchestrated the escape from Lincoln, planting the gun and going out of town for a few days. You make a lot of good points, and many are probably correct.
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Post by clydec on Apr 4, 2021 11:08:31 GMT -5
Barney Mason and family.
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Post by DanJohno on Apr 4, 2021 12:11:48 GMT -5
Whoa! He looks evil in that photo
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Post by MissyS on Apr 4, 2021 23:49:02 GMT -5
It’s believed that Barney Mason could also be in the tintype owned by Frank Abram’s of the possible Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid and maybe Dave Rudabaugh
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Post by MissyS on Apr 5, 2021 10:25:27 GMT -5
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Post by RonBk on Apr 5, 2021 12:49:33 GMT -5
Its an interesting photo. If it really depicts the persons stated would be awesome and could say a good deal about Billys friendship with Garrett. Im thinking if it was taken during this joint wedding on january 14 1880, that would be just a couple of days after Billy shot Joe Grant dead in Fort Sumner. So at least we can establish Billy was in the area of Fort Sumner around the time for the wedding. I just dont know how I feel about the resemblance of the alledged Billy. Not impossible but I certainly dont feel "thats got to be Billy" either. Garrett is a close match for sure, and perhaps Mason and Rudabaugh also?
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Post by RonBk on Apr 5, 2021 12:54:07 GMT -5
Here is a comparison for Rudabaugh with some other alledged photos of him. The only authenticated one is the one with only his head if im correct?
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Post by MissyS on Apr 5, 2021 14:11:59 GMT -5
In that photo looking real close the man they say is Billy looks to me to have a somewhat of a curly looking beard?, but it could be another trick of the eye? I’m not sure it was ever positively determined that Dave Rudabaugh had gotten beheaded in Mexico?, there was another alternative as to what could have happened to him, it was him leaving Mexico with a herd of cattle headed to Montana where he lived a normal life, married and fathered three daughters. and later died an alcoholic in Oregon in 1928, I don’t know if there’s any merit to that story though? The photo of Rudabaugh in the lower left of the group above I believe was from the lot of photos bought from a man that claimed they were from Sallie Chisum’s photo album and the owner had many tintypes believed to be Regulators and the Chisum family, I don’t know how he determined that one was Rudabaugh?, he may be right that it was him, but how Sallie Chisum got a hold of Dave Rudabaugh’s tintype is a little puzzling to me, I didn’t think he worked for Chisum or Tunstall, or that he fought in the LCW?, I was thinking he joined Billy’s gang of Rustlers later?, I wonder if the photo believed to be him in that Sallie Chisum lot could have been misidentified?
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Post by RonBk on Apr 5, 2021 15:16:30 GMT -5
From what Ive seen it appears Rudabaugh joined Billys gang sometime around spring of 1880. So theres the question if he was around there hangin out with Garrett and Billy as soon as january 14 1880? Now sorry about adding one more question instead of answering some of yours. Maybe someone else could help out, dont we have any experts on Rudabaugh on the board? He seems like a pretty interesting person, someone should start digging in to this guy.
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Post by MissyS on Apr 10, 2021 2:23:01 GMT -5
I saw something else in that photo besides what looks like a possible curly beard, listening to the short video in that link, the owner of the photo mentioned that the man that could be Billy is holding up an empty bottle next to his face, so I thought it would be interesting to enlarge it to possibly see a label on it to determine what he or they could have drank at the time the photo was taken? What I can barely make out it looks like a scorpion on the bottle? Circled and the arrow is pointing to the tail.
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Post by MissyS on Apr 12, 2021 11:03:58 GMT -5
It would make sense if Billys reason for lingering in Fort Sumner was to kill Mason. Either that or for the cause of a girl. The theory that seems least likely to me is that he stayed just to work up some money. Either way he probably concluded it was safe to stay and the reason for that could be he knew already Garrett had no intention to set out to kill him. Perhaps due to the fact Garrett orchestrated the escape from Lincoln, planting the gun and going out of town for a few days. The theory that Billy stayed in Fort Sumner to get up enough money was based on what Billy told John Meadows, he told Billy he should head to Mexico and Billy answered saying “I haven’t any money, what could I do in Mexico with no money? I’ll have to go back and get a little before I go.” and Meadows said “Sure as you do, Garrett will get you, and Billy told him “I have got too many friends up there and I don’t believe he will get me and I can stay there awhile and get money enough and then go to Mexico.” Meadows said “You’d better get going while the going is good, you go back up there and you will get killed, or kill Garrett.” And Billy went back to Sumner. The reason of going to Fort Sumner to earn money first may have just been the excuse he gave Meadows, or what he wanted him to believe. The theory that Garrett orchestrated Billy’s escape is interesting and I thought it a possibility Pat Garrett’s actions going out of town at the time does seem a little suspicious, but if Garrett planted the gun it would mean he didn’t care for the lives of Bell and Olinger, and if he helped Billy out of friendship reasons then why peruse him afterwards? Also considering the cost it took to capture Billy, there was documents found in the National Archives about the expenses that incurred to arrest Billy and his gang, the whole expense was $1.072.00, that was a lot of money back then and Garrett took two lives also in the process. Why would Garrett help him escape after all the effort and expense to obtain him? I’m not saying he didn’t or couldn’t of helped Billy, I’m trying to figure out the reason he would? Could him and Billy have made some kind of deal? Billy had no money to pay his lawyer, what deal could they have made?
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Post by RonBk on Apr 12, 2021 12:58:30 GMT -5
Those are all valid questions, I like youre thinking here Missy. I think one possible scenario could be that Billy and Garrett had developed a friendship at some point, and then as things developed at some critical points in the story this friendship came into play for both them. It does not necessarily mean they had a deal or a big scheme that they followed at all times. One motive on Garretts part, aside from their friendship, could be money. I guess he earned some money from leading the chase for Billy. Wasnt there someone in the posse that wanted to shoot Billy when they had captured him at Stinking Springs, but others in the posse pointed their guns on that person and saved Billys life? That could indicate Garrett had some interest in keeping Billy alive, for whatever the reason.
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Post by chivato88 on Apr 12, 2021 15:00:11 GMT -5
I dont think Garrett and Billy were that close for Garrett to plan is escape, remember he shot Bowdre and O'Folliard from ambush thinking that it was Billy. He (Garrett) treated him well while he was in custody but thats it. I also think that Sam Corbet planted the gun in the outhouse. Maybe Billy said he didnt use the gun just to protect Corbet from getting into trouble? Garrett put is friendship aside with Billy the moment he put the badge on
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