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Post by tboor74 on Oct 4, 2020 6:03:50 GMT -5
Bear with me please. I know this has popped up numerous times before but perhaps not from the same angle.
I've been going over the scenario(s) of the night of Billy's supposed shooting. Taking all the various descriptions into account, I see no way at all that Billy would have entered Pete Maxwells's bedroom.
If you / Billy are on the run, with an execution in the post, and are used to staying low profile and checking who's around....I see no circumstances under which Billy would approach the house and see the 2 unknown deputies outside (whether he came from in front or behind), continue on past them and then enter the bedroom.. I've thought about this over and over, using buildings I am familiar with, and there is no circumstance, if I was in Billy's shoes (or socks) that I would be on high alert, spot 2 unknown figures outside, or near a door way and then immediately ignore them and enter said doorway...particularly backwards.
The first reaction would surely be "****, I've got to get out of here".
Knowing that Garrett knew Maxwell and knowing a search party/posse were after him, under what circumstances would Billy bypass the 2 strangers and then go INTO the house/room (even if he's come from elsewhere in the house, as has been put forward).
As I say, I've tried to put myself in that position, under those circumstances, using familair surroundings, and there's no way I would go into the house. Seeing the 2 strangers would put you on red alert and you'd get out, not IN. It just doesn't make any sense.
This obviously is focussing on the story, not even the actual killing question.
Also, it would appear that throughout his life, and certainly around these times for sure, Bily was measured, intelligent and wary in all situations.....not to mention appearing to have the luck/6th sense/9 lives going on. Why on earth would all that go out the window to enter a dark room, which glaringly obviously may contain danger, with 2 strangers on the outside? At the very least, if he went in the room, he may have exited to a hail of bullets. Even if Garrett wasn't in there, and Billy spoke to Pete Maxwell, who told him "it's Garrett", Billy would be stuck in the room with the posse outside!! Even a madman would think that plan a non starter.
I don't believe any of it. I'm not getting into what comes next (yet), just seeking others' opinion. If this was cold cased now the whole situation would be a major red flag as it simply wouldn't happen.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 4, 2020 10:58:17 GMT -5
I totally agree. Also consider the claim that Billy spoke in Spanish "Quien Es", then Poe answered him in English and Billy, whose first language was English, again spoke in Spanish. That would not have happened. There are conflicting versions whether Billy spoke to Maxwell in English vs. Spanish when he asked "who are those men outside?" If that part even happened at all.
Also consider that Poe and McKinney would have at least had a description of Billy and would have tried to prevent him from entering Maxwell's room with a gun in his hand. Also consider that Garrett was only a few yards away from the deputies and would have heard whatever conversation they had with Billy. He would not have remained sitting on Pete's bed while the kid walks in, over to the bed and places his hands on the bed. Garrett would have stood up and confronted the intruder. I think.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 18:44:06 GMT -5
I agree, on the surface it's something that makes absolutely no logical sense--- but then again if we take Brushy Bill Roberts story into consideration, then "Billy Barlow" either was a complete moron or he's an invention of Brushy Bill Roberts.
Why? According to Roberts, he said that against all the warnings that Brushy gave that it was too dangerous, that Maxwell's place was most likely a trap, etc--- Billy Barlow still went outside to Maxwell's and rather than make a run for it upon seeing the two men, backpedaled into Maxwell's bedroom, etc.
If Billy Barlow, before all this, was already aware that The Kid was a wanted man and that Garrett was around town with a posse, etc--- do you honestly think that against all that knowledge a man's desire for beef (when they already were eating) was so strong as to ignore all of that and risk getting killed?
It makes zero sense. It also doesn't make sense for Billy The Kid to go after beef for the same reasons. So, if we go strictly by logic, the ONLY way either Barlow (if he existed) or Billy to go get beef it'd have to be that they were under no fear of attack in the first place--- or that there was more people involved in the conspiracy to kill Billy The Kid than thought.
Unless Barlow (if he existed) or The Kid was a complete and total moron, which is a possibility although people don't like to imagine The Kid as being that way because they somehow believe his abilities with a gun or escape artistry as being an equation to intelligence or wisdom.
Personally I think many of The Kid's so-called friends were in on the plan to get rid of The Kid, and they could easily blame it all on the gringo's after the fact when the truth is that they helped Pat Garrett.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ
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Post by cassandra jane on Oct 4, 2020 21:36:58 GMT -5
Personally I think many of The Kid's so-called friends were in on the plan to get rid of The Kid, and they could easily blame it all on the gringo's after the fact when the truth is that they helped Pat Garrett. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ What makes you think that? (Theyâre pretty flipping terrible friends if it has any basis, yikes.) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2020 22:07:53 GMT -5
Personally I think many of The Kid's so-called friends were in on the plan to get rid of The Kid, and they could easily blame it all on the gringo's after the fact when the truth is that they helped Pat Garrett. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ What makes you think that? (Theyâre pretty flipping terrible friends if it has any basis, yikes.) I tend to believe that Pete Maxwell was in on the assassination of Billy The Kid, and considering that Garrett was related via marriage to Maxwell it's not a stretch. So that's strike one. Strike two is more circumstantial because virtually everybody who was there that night were also friends, relatives or workers of Pete Maxwell. Strike three, is just how many conflicting stories there was concerning that night and the inconsistencies seem to have only helped Garrett's case because all of the confusion seems to indicate that people knew more than what they let on to hide their own accountability. If there really was all these people who thought The Kid to be a hero, etc--- wouldn't you have thought an entire town could've easily overtaken Garrett and his two officers to get justice for The Kid? If it really was this horrible blindside that nobody saw coming, and was considered an injustice, it almost makes no sense why the citizens didn't lash out. If you look at the population of Fort Sumner, it seems every decade roughly it increases by about 100, and in 1920 the population was 777 people. So in 1880 the population would've been roughly 377 people, and if they were all pro-Billy don't you think that it's possible that Garrett would've never gotten out alive? Also, if it wasn't for curious reporters and historians poking around there never would've been another word said about Billy The Kid. These people like Maxwell, Dulvina, etc--- all of them were quiet and of course everytime they were interviewed the story changed over time. If these people really were the friends of Billy The Kid you would've thought that they would have made sure the truth was told right--- but none of these people could keep their stories straight. Even Garrett's own story or his officer's own stories changed over the years. It just doesn't add up how so many things went wrong, or why a man would go against his instincts and knowledge that Garrett was nearby, or why people would change their stories. It's possible that maybe his so-called friends, who in literal truth were not men and women of good character because they all were noted thieves and liars, figured that The Kid was more trouble than he was worth and basically told him that the coast was clear when in fact it was a trap. Of course I'm speculating and I can't prove any of it but it's possible that at least some of that is true. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ |
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Post by cassandra jane on Oct 4, 2020 22:17:05 GMT -5
What makes you think that? (Theyâre pretty flipping terrible friends if it has any basis, yikes.) I tend to believe that Pete Maxwell was in on the assassination of Billy The Kid, and considering that Garrett was related via marriage to Maxwell it's not a stretch. So that's strike one. Strike two is more circumstantial because virtually everybody who was there that night were also friends, relatives or workers of Pete Maxwell. Strike three, is just how many conflicting stories there was concerning that night and the inconsistencies seem to have only helped Garrett's case because all of the confusion seems to indicate that people knew more than what they let on to hide their own accountability. If there really was all these people who thought The Kid to be a hero, etc--- wouldn't you have thought an entire town could've easily overtaken Garrett and his two officers to get justice for The Kid? If it really was this horrible blindside that nobody saw coming, and was considered an injustice, it almost makes no sense why the citizens didn't lash out. If you look at the population of Fort Sumner, it seems every decade roughly it increases by about 100, and in 1920 the population was 777 people. So in 1880 the population would've been roughly 377 people, and if they were all pro-Billy don't you think that it's possible that Garrett would've never gotten out alive? Also, if it wasn't for curious reporters and historians poking around there never would've been another word said about Billy The Kid. These people like Maxwell, Dulvina, etc--- all of them were quiet and of course everytime they were interviewed the story changed over time. If these people really were the friends of Billy The Kid you would've thought that they would have made sure the truth was told right--- but none of these people could keep their stories straight. Even Garrett's own story or his officer's own stories changed over the years. It just doesn't add up how so many things went wrong, or why a man would go against his instincts and knowledge that Garrett was nearby, or why people would change their stories. It's possible that maybe his so-called friends, who in literal truth were not men and women of good character because they all were noted thieves and liars, figured that The Kid was more trouble than he was worth and basically told him that the coast was clear when in fact it was a trap. Of course I'm speculating and I can't prove any of it but it's possible that at least some of that is true. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ I hate that as a possibility but seeing it put like that it could well be. |
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Post by tboor74 on Oct 5, 2020 2:19:06 GMT -5
There could be some merit in that theory. The romantic notion that all of Ft Sumner loved Billy plainly isn't true and some were undoubtedly wanting rid of him and his gang. I forget the name but an example is the rancher who Billy thought a friend but who happily ratted them out when they left for Stinking Springs. I imagine the population was split, some loyal to Billy. others wanting rid, plenty somewhere in the middle. The whole scenario at the house still stinks though....even if there was a trap, the spotting of the 2 unknown deputies blows that away. Why this ludicrous tale?
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Post by cassandra jane on Oct 5, 2020 4:50:56 GMT -5
What gives me some doubt about the theory is Garrettâs meeting with Joe later on. Short of Garrett manipulating Joe/convincing him into believing his brother was the devil (which, surely Joe had some idea of what was going on already), we know (or the record claims at least), that Joe went in absolutely raging. I canât imagine him in any situation just coming out of such a meeting cool with his brotherâs death whatever the reason.
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Post by tboor74 on Oct 5, 2020 5:18:15 GMT -5
What gives me some doubt about the theory is Garrettâs meeting with Joe later on. Short of Garrett manipulating Joe/convincing him into believing his brother was the devil (which, surely Joe had some idea of what was going on already), we know (or the record claims at least), that Joe went in absolutely raging. I canât imagine him in any situation just coming out of such a meeting cool with his brotherâs death whatever the reason. I agree. Something was said to appease Joe.....we can certainly speculate. |
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Post by cassandra jane on Oct 5, 2020 5:41:50 GMT -5
I did have a moment wondering if Garrett confessed Billy was alive (I still think he was), but questioning at the same time why Billy himself wouldnât have been in touch with Joe to let him know this. It could be that Billy was trying to protect Joe as much as he was protecting himself. That or Joe maybe knew Billy was alive (like the Coe brothers), and was somehow enraged by the whole situation regardless of Billyâs survival - maybe from a âI might never see my brother again because youâve railroaded and forced him into pretending heâs dead, and any slight thing that suggests heâs not, will get him killed for realâ stance. If it were my sister whoâd been pushed into that situation, or even killed if Billy DID die that night (gut instinct says no), no amount of appeasements could get me to keep quiet, unless as above she had survived and the only way to keep her so was to be quiet.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 11:55:07 GMT -5
There could be some merit in that theory. The romantic notion that all of Ft Sumner loved Billy plainly isn't true and some were undoubtedly wanting rid of him and his gang. I forget the name but an example is the rancher who Billy thought a friend but who happily ratted them out when they left for Stinking Springs. I imagine the population was split, some loyal to Billy. others wanting rid, plenty somewhere in the middle. The whole scenario at the house still stinks though....even if there was a trap, the spotting of the 2 unknown deputies blows that away. Why this ludicrous tale? Personally I think it's possible that there wasn't anyone on the porch at all--- and The Kid went straight into Maxwell's bedroom and Garrett started blasting. By saying that there was men on the porch, in a sense, absolves Garrett because the strangers made The Kid allegedly walk backwards into the room and Garrett needed Maxwell to confirm who it was. The fact that there are inconsistencies about whether The Kid had a gun or not on him, whether he was face down dead or on his back, who identified the body first, etc--- goes to show me they couldn't keep their stories straight because quite frankly they weren't there or they forgot the original story they were told to say. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2020 12:00:50 GMT -5
As for Joseph Antrim, I don't believe they had a good relationship. I forget where I read it, but one time The Kid came into town to see his brother and Joseph acted as if he didn't know who he was and The Kid remarked, "Joe you don't recognize your own brother?"
The two men basically lived separate lives even in childhood the way I understand it. Different circles of friends and Joseph was an opium addict oftentimes hanging out in opium dens.
The rumors that he was ****ed at Garrett, and swore revenge, are really secondhand information and arguably untrue. I used to think it a genuine story, but as time goes on I don't think Joseph Antrim really had much of a thought about it. I'm sure he was upset, but probably not enough to be as upset as people made it out to be.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all đ
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Post by leeb on Oct 6, 2020 11:43:40 GMT -5
I did have a moment wondering if Garrett confessed Billy was alive (I still think he was), but questioning at the same time why Billy himself wouldnât have been in touch with Joe to let him know this. It could be that Billy was trying to protect Joe as much as he was protecting himself. That or Joe maybe knew Billy was alive (like the Coe brothers), and was somehow enraged by the whole situation regardless of Billyâs survival - maybe from a âI might never see my brother again because youâve railroaded and forced him into pretending heâs dead, and any slight thing that suggests heâs not, will get him killed for realâ stance. If it were my sister whoâd been pushed into that situation, or even killed if Billy DID die that night (gut instinct says no), no amount of appeasements could get me to keep quiet, unless as above she had survived and the only way to keep her so was to be quiet. of course old brushy was forced into pretending he was dead and hiding in the shadows which is why he embarked on his numerous adventures (we know the long list)without a care in the world and not the slightest thought of being recognised as the most wanted person in the West. |
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Post by cassandra jane on Oct 6, 2020 12:21:22 GMT -5
I did have a moment wondering if Garrett confessed Billy was alive (I still think he was), but questioning at the same time why Billy himself wouldnât have been in touch with Joe to let him know this. It could be that Billy was trying to protect Joe as much as he was protecting himself. That or Joe maybe knew Billy was alive (like the Coe brothers), and was somehow enraged by the whole situation regardless of Billyâs survival - maybe from a âI might never see my brother again because youâve railroaded and forced him into pretending heâs dead, and any slight thing that suggests heâs not, will get him killed for realâ stance. If it were my sister whoâd been pushed into that situation, or even killed if Billy DID die that night (gut instinct says no), no amount of appeasements could get me to keep quiet, unless as above she had survived and the only way to keep her so was to be quiet. of course old brushy was forced into pretending he was dead and hiding in the shadows which is why he embarked on his numerous adventures (we know the long list)without a care in the world and not the slightest thought of being recognised as the most wanted person in the West. Firstly, I wasnât referring to Brushy, I was referring to a motive for Billy. Secondly, desist with the constant belittling of other peopleâs thoughts or suggestions. It doesnât help win people to the anti-Brushy or even pro-Billy dying in 1881 movement. |
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Post by leeb on Oct 6, 2020 14:35:05 GMT -5
of course old brushy was forced into pretending he was dead and hiding in the shadows which is why he embarked on his numerous adventures (we know the long list)without a care in the world and not the slightest thought of being recognised as the most wanted person in the West. Firstly, I wasnât referring to Brushy, I was referring to a motive for Billy. Secondly, desist with the constant belittling of other peopleâs thoughts or suggestions. It doesnât help win people to the anti-Brushy or even pro-Billy dying in 1881 movement. I'm not so sure I've offended you in the slightest,or belittled or anything else, just pointed out the fact that old brushy was a fibber! |
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