Guilt by association?

[mwb]

This is a little off subject, but the idea of an "ice house" in that day interests me. Do you know how people made ice back then? It was before freon, I presume. Would they have had to bring it down from the mountains and keep it cold, or something? For the forts to have had this suggests that there was maybe some other method?

[Wayne Land]

I think if Jesse had been parting his hair on the right for most of his life and then after dying someone tried to part it on the left instead, the hair would have been standing straight up. You can't just suddenly part it differently after all those years of being trained the other way. Also, I don't think you can assume that if Jesse didn't die he basically ran out on his family. It's not like he never saw them again, never spent time with them "incognito". They certainly would have covered for him and they would have seen him in secrecy.

I too love a good debate. I look forward to having my ideas challenged because it inspires further thought. Remember, I haven't made up my mind about J. Frank Dalton one way or the other. James L. Courtney also is worth some study and investigation. I liked the ideas and suggestions about interviewing surviving family members.

[lacowboy]

Nov 3, 2009 18:08:40 GMT -5 mwb said:

This is a little off subject, but the idea of an "ice house" in that day interests me. Do you know how people made ice back then? It was before freon, I presume. Would they have had to bring it down from the mountains and keep it cold, or something? For the forts to have had this suggests that there was maybe some other method?

I picked this info off the net.
Ice Houses
# Ice houses became common in the 1800s. Ice was harvested in cold climates or during winter months and chunks of ice were packed in salt, covered in flannel, and stored in underground "houses" to be used in warmer weather.
Cooling Cabinets
# Cooling cupboards were one of the predecessors of modern refrigerators. Wooden cabinets and pantries in kitchens were placed in front of an exterior house wall. Holes were drilled into the cabinet to allow cool air to circulate inside.
Ice Boxes
# Ice boxes were first used in restaurants and homes in England in the early 1800s. Boxes made of wood were lined with tin or zinc and insulated with sawdust, straw or seaweed. An insulated cabinet held ice, while another held food. Drip pans collected melting water and fresh blocks of ice were delivered daily.

In 1834, Jacob Perkins invented the first refrigerator suitable for food use. It used ether in a vapor compression cycle. Less dangerous methods of refrigeration and better insulated boxes evolved into models more closely resembling the ones used today. However, it took almost 100 years for the invention to gain widespread use.
www.ehow.com/about_5470799_did-people-use-before-refrigerators.html

[mwb]

I'm going to have to do some more reading on the Jesse James subject. I've just never thought that one was as convincing. I did go back and look at the James L. Courtney case. Betty Duke is the person's name who made the claim. I found a site where some Courtney relatives dispute this and have done some DNA testing and counter claims of their own. Here's the link. www.ericjames.org/JesseJamesinTexas/facts.html It can get rather tedious to read, but the thing that literally "stands out" to me about that claim is that James L. Courtney was documented as being 6 ft. 4 inches tall! Jesse was never described as being that tall and I would think that would really have been something noticed and talked about in the 1800's. I mean that's tall today, but back then that would have been really tall.

[mwb]

Hello, LACOWBOY,

I really enjoy reading your posts. The icebox information is very interesting. I would tend to assume, though, that probably the cutting edge method that was invented by Jacob Perkins wouldn’t have been in place in a remote spot such as Ft. Sumner. Especially, after the fort was closed. It would have been more likely that they’d have brought ice down from the mountains. They may have done that, but I could see not wanting to use whatever ice was left in July for that purpose. If anything, they would have had to do the salting down method. To me, that also seems kind of doubtful in an out of the way place like Ft. Sumner, New Mexico. I don't know how much salt this would take, but I would assume a lot. This isn’t meant to try and shoot down your theory, but I think that might plausibly explain why they would have wanted to bury any body quickly.

[koffe kup]

Are the writings of HauK true? If so how much? I knew his daughter back in 1968-1972 and I understand that Hauk, who she knew as surnamed James (her father) was "very colorful" to be gentle. Mr. Kup

[nmjames]

Wayne,

Do you know anything about J. Frank Dalton's real name being Thomas Mims (or Mimms) ?
His dad being Henry Mims and mother being Caroline Grace?

Also what do you know about Orvus Howk?

Thanks:

[Wayne Land]

I've not studied Dalton that much and I don't have a definite opinion about his voracity. Apparently Zerelda Mimms' brother was T.W. Mimms. Is there any connection there? Tell us what you know if you will.

[nmjames]

I thought you might be the expert on Brushy and J. Frank Dalton. I found some things on the
computer about them but don't know how true it is. The thing that caught my attention was a
story about a picture being found in a old cabin near Roswell (Bottomless Lakes) in 1945. I have heard the story but never connected it to J. Frank Dalton or Brushy Bill. I don't
know enough about it at this time to post anything. I need to do a little research on the story.

[nmjames]

I thought you might be the expert on Brushy and J. Frank Dalton. I found some things on the
computer about them but don't know how true it is. The thing that caught my attention was a
story about a picture being found in a old cabin near Roswell (Bottomless Lakes) in 1945. I have heard the story but never connected it to J. Frank Dalton or Brushy Bill. I don't
know enough about it at this time to post anything. I need to do a little research on the story.

[Wayne Land]

Feel free to post what you think you might know or what you believe or what you simply suspect. No, I'm not an expert on Dalton and i'm sure there are things about Brushy that I don't know. For me, it isn't about being an expert on anything. It's about being curious regarding everything. For example, I've been curious about Dalton for a long time, and I've read a fair amount about him. Some of what I've read is confusing and difficult to follow. My problem with him is that I've just not read anything that convinced me one way or the other and my primary interest has been Brushy.

I don't believe in guilt by association. So while I "suspect" Dalton was a faker, I will not assume that makes Brushy any less credible. I wouldn't bet my life's savings on Brushy's story either. But for all I've read and seen, I am convinced he was much more likely the real deal, than Dalton was. If I "had to bet" for or against him, I would bet on him being the one true William H. Roberts, alias "William H. Bonney", alias "Billy The Kid", and the longer I research him and consider the pros and cons the more convinced I become.

I wish I'd had the access to first hand information that you apparently have had and I'd love to hear more of what you know or what you've heard regarding Brushy, Dalton, etc. Either way, thanks for posting.

[nmjames]

Wayne,

Do you know where the story that Joe Hines was Jesse Evans comes from? I don't think Morrison ever stated Joe Hines real name in his book. Also do you know anything about any
sworn statements made in Fl. in 1948? Has anyone ever done any research on Joe Hines
case that Morrison helped him with?

Thanks for any help.

[Wayne Land]

According to Brett Hall who claims to have personally reviewed Morrison's papers, Joe Hines was actually William Campbell, not Jesse Evans. Hall claims supporting documentation exists in the probate records of Ward and Ramsey Counties, North Dakota. He also stated that Morrison had kept Hines identity a secret due to attorney client privilege at Hines (Campbell)'s request. He also says Morrison revealed Hines' identity in the later years of his life to his friend Phil Rasch.

[nmjames]

Thanks for the info. Wayne,

I know where most of Rasch's papers are and will do a little research. I have copies of some of
Rasch's letters on another matter. I also have three of Rash's book. I came across a different
name for Joe Hines' but don't know how true it is. I need to do a little research before I say
anything.

Again, Thanks.

[brianthedude]

Fascinating letter, although in my interpretation it does not prove (one way or another) that Brushy was good friends with J. Frank Dalton. While the letter recalls him as having described "Jesse" as such, it does not state that this necessarily refers to the time period when he "knew him" as J. Frank Dalton.