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Post by Wayne Land on Sept 26, 2009 18:32:39 GMT -5
Let's hear some opinions on that question as it relates to Brushy Bill. If William Morrison's writings are true, that is if there was no intentional effort on his part to edit the facts to present Brushy in a more believable light, then Brushy almost "had to be" Billy The Kid. Did Morrison intentionally attempt to convince the Governor and the public of a fraudulent claim by Brushy or did he truly, actually, believe Brushy's story and make every effort to relay it accurately? What do you think?
Also, does anyone have any info to share as to the voracity of the claims of J. Frank Dalton, an acquaintance of Brushy's who claimed he was none other than Jesse James. Some say ol' Dalton was "proven" to be a fraud and since Brushy definitely identified him as Jesse James, then can we not be satisfied that Brushy too, was a fraud? Let's talk. You may find this interesting fodder.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 2, 2009 7:16:40 GMT -5
I am attaching a PDF file of a letter written from William V. Morrison to Ola Everhard. Ms. Everhard was very close to J. Frank Dalton who claimed to be Jesse James and wrote a book that was never published. One of only a couple copies of it is in the possession of Judge Hefner in Hico and he loaned it to me for several days while I visited Hico. In this letter to Ola, it is very obvious to me that Morrison was only seeking the facts. The letter is also important because it does point out that Brushy and Dalton were close friends even though some Brushy believers try to deny that due to the general belief that Dalton was proven to be a fraud (he was not proven to be a fraud). I obtained this letter from the files of Dr. Jannay Valdez and his museum in Canton, TX. I have hesitated to publish it before now but I think it's time to share anything and everything I have gathered on Brushy and try to get at some true facts with the help of members of this new board. So, here's the letter copied exactly from the original. Tell me what you think! Just click the link to download it and it should open in whatever PDF viewing program you have on your computer. If you trouble opening the attachment, let me know and I'll email a copy to you. Attachments:
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Post by lacowboy on Oct 2, 2009 15:41:33 GMT -5
I have never believed that Morrison was trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. This letter seem to prove just that. I have one question. Why does Morrison refer to Dalton as "uncle Jesse"?
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 2, 2009 17:58:07 GMT -5
I don't know how he began to be called "Uncle Jesse" but I think Ola Everhard was calling him that and Morrison was just "returning the complement" more or less. Like when you ask a friend about their mother's help by saying "how's Momma" instead of "how's your Momma". I think this letter along with another one I have from Morrison to Sonnichsen, makes it very clear that William V. Morrison was not trying to make a buck by promoting a fraud. He truly believed Brushy was who he said he was and he apparently also believed that J. Frank Dalton was Jesse James. The letter also settles a controversy about how well Brushy knew J. Frank Dalton. Morrison says Brushy described him and DeWitt Travis as "best and trusted friends".
It is also interesting to note that Morrison describes Brushy as having "no education". We know Billy The Kid did have some school, but it is also likely that Oliver Pleasant Roberts had some education. The fact that Billy The Kid went to school doesn't mean he remembered a great deal of what he'd learned. I don't really believe the letters attributed to him were written by him. I think most all or all of them were written "for" him. Then again, Morrison is not saying Brushy couldn't write or was illiterate. He's saying "no education" but doesn't specify to what degree he means that. I think he means no "high school" or college level education. Obviously Brushy could and did write some of his own letters and notebooks.
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Post by lacowboy on Oct 2, 2009 20:43:40 GMT -5
In the places Billy grew up and at that time schools were few and far between. Even when school was in session it may have been for only a few weeks at a time. The children of that time were expected to do work on the farm or whatever family business there was. They didn't attend school the same way we know of school. That said Billy probably had by today's standards a 5 grade education. That was more back then than most people in the west had. I think Catherine probably taught he most of what he knew about reading and writing. I believe I actually read that for most of the time Billy lived in Silver city School was not open because of the lack of a school teacher.
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Post by mwb on Nov 3, 2009 9:34:14 GMT -5
Persons claiming to be famous western outlaws or other people of some acclaim has always been fascinating to me. In addition to the J. Frank Dalton case, there is another person who has a site out on the web who claims a relative of her's was Jesse. It's at jessejamesintexas.com. It's my opinion that both of these were false claims. I can give reasons if anyone is interested in further discussion. There is another interesting case that has been going on where a man had been trying to prove that his great grandfather was the Sundance Kid and that he didn't die in Bolivia. The website is sundancekidhenrylong.com. However, I saw that a recent DNA test has pretty much disproven that theory. Jesse James, Sundance Kid, the Anastasia/Anna Anderson claim, pretty much every case I'm aware of, all have been disproven by DNA . I would say that Brushy's association with J. Frank Dalton is a strike against him, but not necessarily a deal breaker. There's a picture with Brushy standing over Dalton's bed at www.theoutlaws.com/outlaws5c.htmMy personal opinion is that Brushy was probably not Billy the Kid and that Billy was probably killed at Ft. Sumner as the standard story goes (not necessarily as Garrett described). However, there is enough tantilizing evidence that I'd like to see the Brushy case investigated through to the end.
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Post by lacowboy on Nov 3, 2009 10:20:53 GMT -5
Everything about Billy being killed at Ft Sumner stinks to high heaven. Garrett' Poe' & McKinney all had different stories, so different that one has to believe the whole thing was completely made up. Then there are the 2 Coroners jury reports that are obvious fakes see whbonney.angelfire.com/coroners_jury_report.htm There are eye witness reports that say Billy was not killed that day. Then there is the rush to put him in the ground so quickly that no one got a good look at the body. There was no reason to put the body in the ground without proper identification. Army forts were built with an ice house in them and after looking at the original layout of Fort Sumner i believe there was one there and could have been used to store the body until proper identification was made. Besides that bodies were commonly salted down and wrapped to preserve them until proper identification was made. No I don't believe Billy was killed in Ft Sumner that night. Garrett killed the wrong man and covered it up. That is all that can be.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 3, 2009 11:14:34 GMT -5
Mark, I am curious to hear more of your reasons you think J. Frank Dalton was a fraud. I am still undecided on that one as I've never put enough time into understanding his entire story. I absolutely do not believe the DNA testing proved anything. But I've always been a little skeptical about Dalton because his story of what happened is so involved and if true would have to fall into the hall of fame of "truth is stranger than fiction" awards. I have studied the death photos of Jesse and compared to other known Jesse photos and to Dalton himself and am undecided on those as well. The photos are inconclusive and very difficult to compare with any measuring because of the different angles they are shot from. I must also say however, that if Dalton was indeed a fraud, it doesn't prove anything about Brushy. Maybe he had his reasons for showing up at Dalton's coming out party and identifying him? Maybe he really believed Dalton and was simply mistaken? My position is that the concept of "Guilt by association" is not sufficient proof against Brushy or anyone else for that matter.
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Post by mwb on Nov 3, 2009 11:21:47 GMT -5
I'm only saying "probably". I tend to think that he was killed that night, but the stories don't match because they didn't want to tell the truth. I think he was likely ambushed somehow. You could conceivably explain the quick burial as it being July in New Mexico. The fort was no longer in use and maybe there wasn't any ice, or they didn't think it was necessary. I've never heard about others being salted down, but that's an interesting point.
However, your points are valid and of course there are the various things about Brushy that can't be easily explained away. I do think it's a possibility he survived and that Brushy was the real deal.
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Post by mwb on Nov 3, 2009 12:09:01 GMT -5
Hi Wayne,
I haven’t read a lot about J. Frank Dalton. Most of what I’ve seen has been at various websites such as the one above. Dalton seems to be a lot like Brushy, actually, in that he came forward at a very old age with an interesting story. I just don’t think his holds up nearly as well. It’s pretty convoluted as you can see if you want to read that attached article. I’ve heard some authors speak that did biographies of Jesse and Frank James and they are adamant that stories of his surviving are nonsense.
My main reasons for not believing the J. Frank Dalton story has more to do with what I have read and understand about Jesse James than what I know about J. Frank Dalton. Jesse seems to have been a very restless guy and one who couldn’t stay away from the action. As you probably know, he spent many of his formative years during the guerrilla war in Missouri and Kansas. It would probably be like growing up in some parts of Iraq or Afganistan today! I think he was hooked on the adrenalin rush and violent life and couldn’t shake it. Frank had pretty much settled down by the time Jesse was killed. Jesse even wrote letters to the press, which is partly why he became more famous than the others.
Jesse was also married and had children at the time. He was close to his mother. In order to believe the conspiracy that he didn’t die, we would have to believe that he abruptly abandoned his wife, family, and everyone he loved and cared about. That he suddenly was able to live a peaceful obscure existence which he had never been able to do before. One of those authors that I mentioned stated something about finding a letter that his widow had written in the late 1890’s offering to sell various possesions to collectors because she was in bad circumstances. I just can’t see Jesse leaving his family to their fates and running off to a new life somewhere. It would be a complete personality change.
You know, in re-reading J. Frank Dalton’s story, one thing really jumped out at me. Notice the name of the guy he says was killed in his place, Charlie Bigalow. Sounds an awful lot like Billy Barlow!
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Post by mwb on Nov 3, 2009 14:41:03 GMT -5
Here's another item to throw out. You know, there is a story that Billy met Jesse James at Hot Springs, NM in 1879. Here's a link.........http://www.georgejansen.com/jesse/james/jesse/billykid/. Maybe Brushy really was Billy and since their stories were so similar, thought Dalton might also be the real thing. Strange that two guys with somewhat similar stories would turn up again years later. After that long, maybe Brushy really thought he was Jesse. Who knows! Maybe they were telling the truth! I sure wish DNA testing would have been available at that time. It's a lot of fun to think about. Then there's that really bizzare item about exhuming the wrong body in trying to get to J. Frank Dalton!
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 3, 2009 15:51:44 GMT -5
Mark, Thanks for the posts. I really enjoyed your comments about his wife being abandoned and such. That makes a great deal of sense to me. It seems you think somewhat like I do about these mysteries. That is by examining the logic of it all. One thing comes to mind though. Didn't Jesse's wife claim right after the shooting that the man killed was not Jesse and then later recant? Why would a wife whose husband just got a bullet in the head even think about trying to suggest the victim was not her husband? If indeed that was what she meant to say. I've never seen any attempts to quote exactly how she put it. Maybe she was reacting in trauma, screaming "they didn't kill Jesse, they didn't kill Jesse" more or less in disbelief of what had happened and someone who heard that thought she meant it literally.
Also, we talk a great deal about DNA and how it's a shame they didn't have that ability to test those guys back in 1950-52. But to me, the real shame is that even though they did certainly have cameras, no one took photos of Dalton's scars on his neck from the attempted hanging, or the burns on his feet, or a close up of his damaged finger and no one took photos of Brushy's scars or his ability to escape handcuffs, etc. We could have had so much more to go on than we do, if someone would have just grabbed their Brownie camera and taken some evidentiary photos.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 3, 2009 16:47:11 GMT -5
Notice this photo of Jesse James in his casket shows a man with his hair parted on the left side. This is not a reverse image because it is clearly visible his trousers lap over from the left as do all men's trousers. Then look at any images of Jesse James and you'll note the rather unusual feature that he parted his hair on the right, rather than the left. Again, check the lapels for proof of images that are not reversed. In fact, both Jesse and Frank James parted their hair on the right. But not the dead guy!!! Hmmmm!!! Attachments:
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Post by mwb on Nov 3, 2009 17:39:27 GMT -5
Thanks, Wayne. I really love this kind of discussion. Some of the other boards I've visited I've thought kind of tended to focus on the minutiae of the various subjects rather than the "big enchilada" being did Billy/Jesse survive! I even enjoy the heated discussions! People shouldn't take things like this personally. That makes it fun. I don't mind anyone telling me they think I'm full of it!
Regarding his wife making that statement, I thought I had read it was his mother that said that, although, same thing really. I've looked at some sites from the James family and they are really adamant about his being killed by Bob Ford, but maybe it's likely that they wouldn't want to acknowledge if he had run out on his family. I just don't see that though. I haven't seen enough photos, I guess, to have an opinion there, but, obviously, Jesse wouldn't have parted his hair for the photo above! You know, Jesse was exhumed once before the DNA thing. I think it was in 1902. I read something about that once. He was reburied in the current spot. The family was all there, etc. and there was no talk of it not being him. I believe the coffin was opened and everything and it was confimed it was him (allegedly!).
About the other comment about why didn't more people take photos, I completely agree. So many stones left unturned. I was thinking about that on my ride home from work today. You know, there might be a few left that could be turned. What about the communication between Morrison and Joe Hines, the person who claimed to be Jesse Evans? I wonder if that person has any living relatives that could be contacted to see if he told them anything. Also, the person in Round Rock, Jimmy McDaniels, that supposedly was frightened when told that "the kid says hello". I wonder if that person has any living relatives that might remember something they were told. I may look into those. The detective in me is starting to get interested...............
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Post by lacowboy on Nov 3, 2009 17:58:26 GMT -5
I'm only saying "probably". I tend to think that he was killed that night, but the stories don't match because they didn't want to tell the truth. I think he was likely ambushed somehow. You could conceivably explain the quick burial as it being July in New Mexico. The fort was no longer in use and maybe there wasn't any ice, or they didn't think it was necessary. I've never heard about others being salted down, but that's an interesting point. However, your points are valid and of course there are the various things about Brushy that can't be easily explained away. I do think it's a possibility he survived and that Brushy was the real deal. Although The fort was no longer in use as such, the entire fort area was a town with eating establishments and a saloon. I tend to believe that if there is an ice house on the premises it would have been in use especially in the summer months. It just does not make sense to have one and not use it. Bounty hunters often salted down the bodies if they could in order to be able to get a positive ID so they could collect their bounty. No ID no money it just makes sense to me.
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