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Post by cassandra jane on Jan 6, 2022 12:38:34 GMT -5
Do we know if Billy was Protestant or Catholic (even nominally). That could be an interesting angle to follow down the Masonic route. I don't know a great deal but I do know that the Masonic movement was Protestant (which I believe was largely Tunstall's side) and Catholics were (until recent times) banned from becoming Masons under threat of excommunication. Murphy's side were Irish Catholic I think? I'm sure I read somewhere that Billy was Catholic even though he fought on Tunstall's side. Anyone know? An interesting route to follow on many leads, find the governors' religions and you'll have a clue to their Masonic background. I suppose it depends on where his mother (aunt) came from in Ireland if she was Irish. Being one denomination or the other could have influenced him (maybe not enough to not be a “sinner” but you know). My grandfather’s siblings are all Salvation Army folks so I can see what they have to say if he doesn’t know much. I know there was a tiny list of New Mexico lodge members listed on Ancestry.com but if I remember right it was only a list of nine and I can’t remember recognising any off the top of my head without looking again. I read that Masons/lodges weren’t allowed to talk religion or politics which makes me doubt the theory that the LCW was Mason-founded but at the same time, politics at the very least does tend to seep into everything no matter how far removed from politics it seems. Then again if I recall the Wikipedia page lists Chisum as one so likely true. Maybe manipulative if he used Billy particularly, knowing the threat of excommunication on (supposed) Catholics.
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Post by cassandra jane on Jan 15, 2022 11:38:08 GMT -5
I asked my grandfather and he enjoyed thoroughly leading me down the garden path of non-answers and “who” and “it’s none of your business” and “you better back out now” when I said I wasn’t going to get anywhere. He enjoyed it way too much, the smarmy git.
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Post by cassandra jane on Jan 15, 2022 15:14:27 GMT -5
I asked my grandfather and he enjoyed thoroughly leading me down the garden path of non-answers and “who” and “it’s none of your business” and “you better back out now” when I said I wasn’t going to get anywhere. He enjoyed it way too much, the smarmy git. Basic gist of the conversation with him smiling away to himself or doing that wicked little cackle after every answer: “What do you know about the masons?” “None of your business, why do you want to know?” “They think Billy the Kid might have been one.” “NO.” “You knew him personally did you?” “No.” “So how do you know he wasn’t?” “Who?” “So what do the masons do then?” “I don’t think that’s any of your business.” “Women can join can’t they?” (No answer) “What about Pat Garrett then? He might have been one too.” “Who?” “Guy who apparently killed Billy.” “No.” “Pat was also apparently an Odd Fellow.” “The sweetie?” “I’m not gonna get anywhere with this.” “You’d better back down.” He absolutely loved every second of winding me up but I also think he knows me better than to assume I’d just give up. He was very determined Billy wasn’t one before reverting to feigning ignorance and all but giggling to himself like a school boy. It’s been a while since I saw him enjoy something so much (and he used to joke that I was going to push him to his death every time I saw him, and would snicker away to himself each time). His immediate insistence that Billy wasn’t one did seem a bit suspicious in itself so think there might be something there but I won’t get the chance to snoop through his house until he’s passed unfortunately (and even then I think he’s trying to outlive us all for the sheer thrill of being a wind up merchant). Also “you better back down” sounded like a threat if ever I heard one. I hadn’t had him down as someone who would believe in all that mumbo jumbo but now I’m like, “well what else do I not know about this man?” Feels like I might be headed down a rabbit hole but I have years worth of university based research skills behind me so I’m gonna enjoy digging as much as he enjoyed winding me up tonight.
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Post by tboor74 on Jan 16, 2022 3:47:58 GMT -5
Dig, dig, dig.... Pure fantasy and speculation....imagine Billy and Pat were both Masons.....I'm not saying it changes the official story, but definitely opens a whole new chapter of investigation and possible collusion re escapes etc. www.history.com/news/freemason-secrets-revealedThe below is from a recent story from the UK regarding a man who shot his son in law: "Both were ‘brothers in arms’ at a Kent Freemasonry lodge formed from a clay pigeon shooting club, in which Hucker played a leading role and was its safety officer. Hucker introduced builder Robert to the lodge in 2015 and both were pictured together at a Masonic event with black suits and ties from the order, known as ‘The Brotherhood.’ But Hucker - formerly a Masonic Provincial grand officer who also belonged to another lodge promoting peace - gunned down Robert with a 12-bore shotgun in May this year after being told his home in Dartford, Kent, was going to be sold by his daughter and her fiancé. Masonic historian and ex-Met DCI Mick Neville, said: “This is the first recorded occasion in which a Freemason has murdered another Freemason.” Freemasons pledge not to injure each other and prevent anyone else from doing so as part of their ceremony."
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Post by chivato88 on Jan 17, 2022 13:48:26 GMT -5
I asked my grandfather and he enjoyed thoroughly leading me down the garden path of non-answers and “who” and “it’s none of your business” and “you better back out now” when I said I wasn’t going to get anywhere. He enjoyed it way too much, the smarmy git. He's hiding something for sure lol, dont give up!
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Post by cassandra jane on Jan 17, 2022 16:32:02 GMT -5
I asked my grandfather and he enjoyed thoroughly leading me down the garden path of non-answers and “who” and “it’s none of your business” and “you better back out now” when I said I wasn’t going to get anywhere. He enjoyed it way too much, the smarmy git. He's hiding something for sure lol, dont give up! One way or another I’m gonna find out the juicy gossip. Whether I have to join them myself and learn all those weird-ass handshakes or whether I find something in his house after he passes, I will find out or die trying.
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Post by Don williams on Mar 15, 2023 12:33:37 GMT -5
I have always said that the free masons was behind the lincoln co war the free masons control everything the law the courts political partys i just wonder if the two govenors were masons also
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Post by MissyS on Mar 16, 2023 1:01:59 GMT -5
I have always said that the free masons was behind the lincoln co war the free masons control everything the law the courts political partys i just wonder if the two govenors were masons also Good point. Lew Wallace was a Mason, and so was Albert Jennings Fountain the attorney that defended Billy the Kid.
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Post by noreaster on Mar 17, 2023 18:56:41 GMT -5
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Post by Don williams on May 1, 2023 2:42:35 GMT -5
Their is something there that show intent by the masons in Lincoln. The masons had to keep control of Lincoln and at any cost the masons went against one of there own in Albert Jennings Fountain which shows you that the masons are not loyal to each other or the brotherhood
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Post by Trailing Katie on May 22, 2023 21:47:28 GMT -5
Well folks it's 2023. I started researching all this in like 2005. As grandma wanted to know what happened to her father. My 1st stop was the social security office for names and addresses I may not know of. My great grandfather was a showman. And he updated his card a couple of times. As John Edward Sundstrom and Johnny Howard. His father he put down as Edward Charles Sundstrom or Charles Howard. His mom he put down as a world famous fictional character. Katie O'Hara as in Gone with the Wind. Thought that was a fluke for sure. But my grandma's mom was Iva Mae Shuster. She lived in Bates County, MO. Which is on the Kansas City side of Missouri. I reside near St. Louis. At the time The Younger brothers dad worked at the post office. When I started my research I found some good info from Bud Hardcastle. As well as Felix Carroll Mc Kinney.
In 2013 an El Paso Police Officer published to the world that my great uncle was a companion to Billy. Thought that was a fluke as well. However, I think he was much closer than any of us could have realized. As my uncle ended up having the 1st Rolling Mill in Dallas on The Cotton Belt Railroad. Then he worked with Daniel Joseph Rogers to build many courthouses, post offices and other buildings all over Texas. Maybe, even the capital in Austin.
The Catholic Church is involved. As the Knights Of Columbus the life insurance selling side of the Church started in 1902. I know this as my uncle was one of 40 original members. My one off stories go on an on. As my uncle was a Sheriff as well on the Peco's. Come to find out him and his friends built the Southwest.
For those that don't know The Grand Ole Opry is at the original home of the KGC. Turns out My uncle ended up being the miner for the man over the 1st Holding Company in all America. It was his grandson Jock(John Hay) Whitney who put out Gone with the Wind with Russians. Jock was the son of Helen Hay daughter of John Hay. Abe's right hand man.
Within the last couple of years I've identified my supposedly fictional great grandma in a picture with Evangeline Crawford. Thanks to the Buffalo Bill museum. I knew my uncle had a son that dated the grand daughter of Captain Jack. But I didn't know that Katie actually existed until this. My uncle's son died in a diving accident and went to Hotel Dieu there in El Paso. I found out Evangeline's son was a pall bearer at the funeral recently. When Eva married Daniel Reckhart she stayed at the home of Mr. Mills. He was the brother to Anson Mills who laid out all of El Paso. Also, the mason's are heavily involved plus Russians!. As I know my uncle also did Mining with Charles B Eddy. He was in business with Pat Garrett and the water company. This brings in JJ Hagerman, then his son and EB Ward.
To me there is no better way to hide a fortune than to say it never existed. I have a lot of the things I've discovered on my blog at mortgagefraudclosure.blogspot.com. I tracked my grandmothers mom's side back to being a clerk at the Church of England under King George. The man over the 1st Holding company was William Collins Whitney. His 1st wife married him into the Standard Oil fortune. His 2nd wife Edith Randolph was the daughter of Dr. Frederick May. The doctor who examined both Abe and John Wilkes Booth. Jock's sister was Joan Whitney Payson. She was part owner of the NY Mets. The Payson family she married into owned the farm the Whitehouse sits on today.
Another family has DNA tracked my grandma and put her into this Whitney family. With her dad being a different man by the name of John Henry O'Hara. A famous writer tied to Jock Whitney and Joan. And they had to know grandma. Otherwise they wouldn't have known she has a man's name in her name. If I was to of introduced her it would of been as Geraldine Jean Sundstrom Kalb. As if you didn't know it grandma had a mans name in it so it was Geraldine Edward Jean Sundstrom. I forgot about it til I saw them put it in the family tree. The other man Johnny Howard was his stage name. The name of his sideshow was called The Hollywood Sideshow! The truth you most likely will not find with the lies they publish. So far they've made $200 million plus assets unimaginable publishing such lies for over 80 years. Also, when Eva used to visit Washington, Dc she would stay at the home of Roger Tanner. He was at Abe's bedside upon death. Captain Jack also wrote about meeting Billy as well.
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Post by MissyS on May 23, 2023 21:03:44 GMT -5
Trailing Katie. How fun that must have been to research your interesting family tree! Captain Jack or John Crawford was quite interesting.
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Post by Trailing Katie on May 26, 2023 21:19:12 GMT -5
Thanks Missy, I just found out some more information about Robert Weems Tansill. New Mexico has an interesting piece on him and his historical home. Page 12 elaborates as to who his grandfather was and his important place in America. npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/8166e846-3a45-4dec-9abc-4189125ea2ff en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason_Locke_Weems The gov of Texas at the time was E J Davis. The father of Briton Davis. They have an interesting piece in all of this stuff as well going back to one of the 1st settlements in America.
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Post by MissyS on May 28, 2023 12:31:20 GMT -5
Thanks Missy, I just found out some more information about Robert Weems Tansill. New Mexico has an interesting piece on him and his historical home. Page 12 elaborates as to who his grandfather was and his important place in America. npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/8166e846-3a45-4dec-9abc-4189125ea2ff en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason_Locke_Weems The gov of Texas at the time was E J Davis. The father of Briton Davis. They have an interesting piece in all of this stuff as well going back to one of the 1st settlements in America. Great stuff, great pioneers that settled the west that were an important part of history. Interesting about what Captain Jack said Billy the Kid told him when they met, that it was the whiskey and the company he kept that got him where he was, I read of several old timers that knew Billy and said he didn’t drink. Captain Jack Crawford said he met Billy the Kid alone on his horse on a long stretch of desert that had no water and they had what I would call a nice chat. Captain Jack was an entertainer and Billy was a lover of song and dance so they discussed that interest, Billy telling Captain Jack he missed the dances and fiddle playing being on the run and told him his favorite song was “Turkey in the Straw”. Captain Jack offered Billy some water and Billy offered Captain Jack some deer jerky, then went there separate ways. What Billy was doing alone on that area I can only guess he must have been running from Garrett and maybe thought he wouldn’t follow him in that desolate area.
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Post by thumbuster on Dec 10, 2023 1:25:10 GMT -5
I read in an online newspaper dated Sept. 1913 that John Chisum was a Royal Arch Mason, and filled several official positions throughout his life. He died on December 23, 1884. The female Branch of the Masonic Order is called Eastern Star. My grandmother, Ruth McCarty was the president (not sure what the title of director/leader of the organization is. She acquired the position from the wife of Dr. O.H. Simpson who was a dentist in Dodge City, Kansas. My grandmother lived in Bucklin a small town near Dodge. Dr. Simpson's sister was Inez Simpson Chisum, she was married to Walter Pitzer Chisum (a 32d degree Mason) who was Sallie Chisum's eldest of her two younger brothers (Walter and Willi). My grandmother McCarty must have inherited her position in the Eastern Star organization from Inez, her good friend. Her husband, and my grandfather Joseph Franklin McCarty was mentored in his dental practice in Bucklin, Dr. Simpson was a well known dentist in Dodge City. He was famous for inventing dental equipment. He invented, among other things, a neat machine to make perfectly fitted gold crowns for teeth. I watched my grandfather use that little machine! Dr. O.H. Simpson had several children and my father recalled going to Dodge City to play with those kids. I had a photo of my grandparents and Dr. and Mrs. Simpson posed together. My grandparents warned me to never lose that photograph. Of course, I have!!! Inez Simpson told the living Chisum heirs that John S. Chisum hired Billy the Kid some, but they did not like him much because he "wasn't very reliable!" (Inez's words). My grandfather McCarty told me that we are related to the Kid. My late father told me the same story. When I found my picture of Billy the Kid, I recognized him because he looked like my grandfather's twin! He looked like a McCarty. Stands to reason because he actually WAS a McCarty!
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