Row Haws book

[jgaines]

Wayne,  I believe you've read the new Haws book.   I have not yet, and I guess I'm just being lazy for not ordering it.     I have only one question concerning the book:    Does it provide evidence from brushy family members,  friends, eye witnesses that positively place him somewhere other than Lincoln County or thereabouts in the late 1870's - 1881 .      I guess if the book contends that he was "Oliver P "   then they probably have their evidence.    Even so,   do they have evidence that there was no such person of
"william henry Roberts"    ?         And as far as DNA testing goes,   If you were to test Brushy's mitochondrial dna against whoever Ollie P's mother was -   then wouldn't that put the following assumption to rest :   Brushy can't be Billy because he was Oliver P. Roberts born 1879.       

[Wayne Land]

Yes I've read the book. The book approaches Brushy with a determined effort to prove "once and for all" that he was not Billy The Kid. Basically by proving he was Oliver P. Roberts born in 1879. In my opinion, it fails to do that. While it does lay out a pretty solid case that Oliver P. Roberts born in 1879 was not Billy The Kid (which of course, we already knew), it does not prove Billy The Kid did not assume that identity sometime just prior to 1910. It points out numerous aspects of Brushy's testimony that seem false however, what it needed to really prove it's point would be some kind of sworn statement or reliable testimony of a family member who knew the real Oliver P. Roberts prior to 1910 and also knew Brushy and could provide first hand knowledge that he was indeed the real Oliver P. Roberts. It doesn't offer any such proof. Rather, it relies on basically what is just hearsay. It devotes the entire last chapter to me and my hypothesis that there may have been two real Olivers, namely Oliver P. and Oliver L. Unfortunately it doesn't fairly present my ideas on that as they have developed over time.

I do recommend reading it. Even if you are as convinced as I am that Brushy really was Billy The Kid, you'll learn a great deal about the Roberts family and Brushy.

Yes, I do believe if Brushy's mitochondrial DNA was shown to be "not" a match with the Roberts maternal line, then that would prove beyond a doubt that he was not the real Oliver P. Roberts. The problem with that is, the City of Hamilton, TX, where Brushy is buried has refused to allow an exhumation. As I understand it, they wanted permission from a family member and the only person there who "claimed" to be related asked that the body not be exhumed. She runs the museum in Hamilton and claims to be a grand niece (or something similar) of Brushy's. Ironically, she believes he was Billy The Kid but doesn't want the exhumation and was able to stop it from happening. Go figure.

[Texas Truth Teller]

"It points out numerous aspects of Brushy's testimony that seem false however, what it needed to really prove it's point would be SOME KIND OF SWORN STATEMENT OR RELIABLE TESTIMONY OF A FAMILY MEMBER WHO KNEW THE REAL OLIVER P. ROBERTS PRIOR TO 1910 AND ALSO NEW BRUSHY and could provide first hand knowledge that he was indeed the real Oliver P. Roberts."

Brushy did admit that he married Mollie Brown. That was 12 August 1912 in Van Zandt County. The book was published in 2014. Why do you think all those 100 year old Roberts relatives declined to put their name on the dotted line?

[Wayne Land]

Are you suggesting they'd have to be alive today in order to have made a statement about Brushy? Because I was not. There were immediate family members of Oliver P. Roberts still living when Brushy came out as Billy The Kid. I would like to have seen a documented statement from a brother, sister, nephew or niece of Oliver's other than Geneva Pittmon, since she was not old enough to have known Brushy prior to 1910. That would make some difference for me. Even a statement like, "my mother said her mother told her that Grandfather said" would carry weight if it showed that someone who knew Oliver P. Roberts prior to 1910 had said Brushy was really Oliver P. We don't really even get that from the book.

[Texas Truth Teller]

"There were immediate family members of Oliver P. Roberts still living when Brushy came out as Billy The Kid."

That sounds reasonable. I know that Morrison provided five affidavits of five men who identified Brushy as Billy the Kid. Do you know if they had seen Billy the Kid before 1881?

[Wayne Land]

Yes. I do believe Jose Montoya was a friend of Billy's prior to 1881. Severo Gallegos definitely saw him prior to 1881 because he was the one who helped Billy secure his designer ankle bracelets with a rope so he could ride out of Lincoln the day he shot Ollinger and Bell. I personally doubt that Martile Abels had seen Billy prior to 1881, but I accept her ID of Brushy because I believe her husband John Abels definitely had known Billy prior to 1881 and introduced him to his wife sometime later. I know, some would argue that explanation regarding Martile Abels amounts to guesswork on my part but I say, read her comments carefully and have an open mind about it. When she says Billy "visited the family" that doesn't necessarily mean it happened "after she married John." It doesn't even have to mean "she" was there when he visited. If she met Billy in lets say, 1902 (just to pick a year when it could have happened), I think it is a huge stretch of the imagination to suggest that Oliver P. Roberts would have been in El Paso that far back, having gotten John Abels to pretend he was Billy The Kid. And yet she was strongly convinced Brushy was the Kid.

In my opinion, the Haws book provides nothing other than hearsay regarding family members' opinions of Brushy's claim. In fact, he admits his own mother became convinced Brushy really was Billy The Kid. According to him that was only because William Tunstill filled her head with false information. If you just read all that in the book without looking deeper you'd probably assume she later retracted that opinion/belief when she realized Tunstill had misled her. But if you pay closer attention you see there's nothing in the book that actually says that ever happened. When I questioned Mr. Haws about that he was unable to confirm she had ever become "unconvinced" that Brushy was Billy The Kid. Furthermore, without rereading, I think there is a statement in the book that Mrs. Haws "helped" Tunstill do his research. Think about it, did she not have access to family members who knew Oliver before 1910. If they'd told her Brushy was the real Oliver, do you think Tunstill could have convinced her otherwise? I don't believe she was just an innocent bystander who fell for a bunch of Tunstill lies but that she actually did provide information that helped show Brushy's claim was for real.

[jgaines]

To state the obvious, for Brushy to be Billy, he can't have been Ollie P. Roberts born 1879. So where is the real Ollie P. from 1910 forward ? Find records of an Ollie P. Roberts that's NOT Brushy, now we'd be getting somewhere. Or a record that he died. Or maybe record of two different Ollie's at the same time. Thats what its going to take at this point to refute the Brushy nay sayers. Brushy's story gained interest to me when I learned he had lived in Comanche in the 1930's , where I've had family since the 1870's.

[Wayne Land]

Good point except that the fact no one has been able to do that does not rule out the possibility Brushy's claim was true. If the real Oliver P. changed his name, very doable at the time, especially with someone else taking his place, he would have been untraceable. He could have died in the 1890's in Indian Territory. I apologize for the continued use of statements that include, "possibly", "could have", "might have", etc. and if it were not for all the reasons that support Brushy's claim, I'd say he was obviously a fraud. But I just can't wrap my head around the extremely unlikely odds that a man who shared so many physical traits with Billy and knew so much about Billy would also choose to put his own life in jeopardy with such an unlikely hoax or that the real Oliver P. Roberts would have so many bullet and knife wounds on him as reported by some pretty reliable witnesses.

[jgaines]

I agree totally. I'm just saying it would sure substantiate Brushy's case if some kind of evidence of the "real Ollie " was found. How about a grave somewhere ? that would help. Keep digging !

[Texas Truth Teller]

"Good point except that the fact no one has been able to do that does not rule out the possibility Brushy's claim was true. If the real Oliver P. changed his name, very doable at the time, especially with someone else taking his place, he would have been untraceable. He could have died in the 1890's in Indian Territory. I apologize for the continued use of statements that include, "possibly", "could have", "might have", etc. and if it were not for ALL THE REASONS that support Brushy's claim, I'd say he was obviously a fraud. But I just can't wrap my head around the extremely unlikely odds that a man who shared so many physical traits with Billy and knew so much about Billy would also choose to put his own life in jeopardy with such an unlikely hoax or that the real Oliver P. Roberts would have so many bullet and knife wounds on him as reported by some pretty reliable witnesses."

What are all the reasons that support Brushy's claim?

[Wayne Land]

Me thinks you ask questions to which the answers are already known? Facial and full body matches, knowledge not widely available, behavior, eyewitness identifications, etc. The odds. Please, let's not go into the minutia. I know you think I'm either naive or just plain blind. It's OK.

[clydec]

I just finished reading the book "Billy the kid, beyond the grave", and in it the author states that brushy never used Ollie P Roberts as his alias, but in fact he used Ollie L Roberts which was another cousin that died and brushy was mistaken for him by Ollie L Roberts mother.

[Wayne Land]

Actually, Brushy did use the middle initial "P" at least once, I believe. In 1918 there was a draft registration by Oliver Pleasant Roberts witnessed by his father H.O. Roberts. I do think that was Brushy and not the real Oliver P. However, I don't think that necessarily negates the idea there might have been a real live cousin named Oliver L who was likely born in 1867 or 68. I don't propose to know the truth about all that. The existence of a real Oliver L. Roberts is all conjecture as far as I know.

[Texas Truth Teller]

"Actually, Brushy did use the middle initial "P" at least once, I believe. In 1918 there was a draft registration by Oliver Pleasant Roberts witnessed by his father H.O. Roberts. I do think that was Brushy and not the real Oliver P. However, I don't think that necessarily negates the idea there might have been a real live cousin named Oliver L who was likely born in 1867 or 68. I don't propose to know the truth about all that. The existence of a real Oliver L. Roberts is all conjecture as far as I know."

The WWI registration card of Oliver Pleasant Roberts has only 4 names. Oliver Pleasant Roberts was the registrant. Mollie Roberts was the nearest relative, and C. E. Gauldin and C. W. Sturdiman of the Local Registration Board. Why do you think H. O. Roberts witnessed the registration of his son?

You are correct. The existence of Oliver L., or Ollie L. is all conjecture. Brushy said he had a cousin, son of Henry Roberts, born about 1867. Henry Roberts was born 18 May 1852. I really doubt that Henry Roberts fathered a child at the age of 15. Henry married Caroline DUNN about 1870, and they were the parents of Samantha Belle Roberts Arnold and Martha Vada Roberts Heath.

[Texas Truth Teller]

clydec,
"I just finished reading the book "Billy the kid, beyond the grave", and in it the author states that brushy never used Ollie P Roberts as his alias, but in fact he used Ollie L Roberts which was another cousin that died and brushy was mistaken for him by Ollie L Roberts mother."

W. C. Jameson is a talented and entertaining writer. Historian and genealogist, not so much.

Morrison's book, "Alias Billy the Kid", page 99, Brushy Bill identified his cousin as Ollie, not Ollie L. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown (Morrison's book, "Alias Billy the Kid", page 90). There is a Van Zandt County marriage record, 21 August 1912, for Oliver Roberts and Mollie Brown. The World War I draft registration card of Oliver Pleasant Roberts identified his nearest relative as Mollie Roberts. Warranty deeds, Sevier County, Arkansas, show that O. P. Roberts bought 80 acres 23 February 1918, and O. P. Roberts and Mollie Roberts sold 80 acres of land in Sevier County, Arkansas, 21 August 1918. After Mollie died 20 February 1919, Brushy Bill returned to Van Zandt County where he was counted in the 1920 census as Oliver P. Roberts.

There are 4 records where the middle initial appears as "P" rather than "L".

There is no evidence or record that Brushy Bill had a cousin named Ollie.
There is no evidence that Oliver P. Roberts, born in 1879 to Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson in Sebastian County, Arkansas, died, changed his name, or otherwise disappeared from Van Zandt County, Texas, after he married Anna Lee in 1909 and divorced her in 1910.