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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 26, 2015 10:23:52 GMT -5
All true I'm sure. But none of it proves he wasn't originally named William Henry Roberts, born in 1859. Though, on the face value of all the facts you lay out, I admit, you have a strong case against Brushy's claim. But none of that explains how he could look so much like Billy, talk like him, have the same eye color (according to Gallegos), and the same posture and stature. And none of those books you referred to on the other thread say a single word about Billy having dated a girl named Sedillios, but Brushy knew about it. There's nothing in any of those books that mentions a cave just west of Lincoln that Billy used. Brushy knew about it and predicted its location before he got to it. There's no proof Billy ever used such a cave but then how did Brushy know it was there before it came into view. Why did Brushy break down in tears at the thought of going into the courthouse in Lincoln unless he was emotionally involved in what happened there? How did Brushy know the famous tintype was a reverse image so that when he recreated that pose for Morrison, he stood with the rifle in his left hand and the pistol on his right hip? If Brushy got all his knowledge from books, why didn't he go along with what the books said about the escape from Lincoln and the number of shots fired in Fort Sumner? And this old man was willing to put his life at risk by claiming he was Billy The Kid. Why?
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Post by nmjames on Oct 26, 2015 19:08:56 GMT -5
Wayne,
Can you show me where Brushy ever said he dated a girl named Sedilliou?
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 27, 2015 12:02:16 GMT -5
“According to a September 14, 1990 letter from Jim Tully of Ruidoso Downs, New Mexico to Judge Bob Hefner of Hico, Texas, Mr. Tully stated: “Years ago I read Brushy Bill, and felt that he indeed was Billy the Kid. When he was here around 1950 they had him visit old Severo Gallegos, who was the boy who led him his horse that day in Lincoln when he broke jail. Brushy Bill was taken to the home of Severo Gallegos and it so happened that Severo was gone to the grocery store to replenish his supply of tobacco. Now Severo’s next door neighbor was one Josephine Randolf Sanches, granddaughter of Frank Randolf who lived in San Patricio when Billy the Kid was there. In fact, Frank and Billy dated two girls together. Josephine, whom I knew real well told me about this incident. She says that I’ll just find out for myself if this man is really Billy the Kid. So she says to Billy the Kid, or rather Brushy Bill: ”Who was your sweetheart in San Patricio?“ With no hesitation whatsoever, Brushy Bill replies: ”A Sedillios girl across the river.“ That was Billy’s sweetheart alright, and who but[…]”
Excerpt From: Brett L. Hall. “The Real Billy the Kid AKA Brushy Bill Roberts.”
Then there is this post from a different thread here on this board.
"The Sedillo girl was Angelita born in 1865. Died Roswell, NM 1940. Her parents were Jose Miguel and Maria Garcia Sedillo. Angelita's brother Sixto born 1868 and died Weld County, CO 1957. The family story is that Jose was friends with Billy who took an interest in the daughter. Sixto was the lookout when Angelita and Billy met . Jose disapproved and married Angelita off to an old man. Hope this helps.
Richard Alexander, Sedillo descendant Parker, CO Reavette@aol.com"
Now either somebody lied, somewhere, or Brushy Bill was indeed the real Billy The Kid. That's the way I see it. So who do you think was a liar and how can you support such an accusation?
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xs59
2 - 19 Posts
Posts: 7
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Post by xs59 on Oct 27, 2015 12:51:49 GMT -5
Wayne, I will answer you more detailed in the other thread where we discussed how Brushy could've learned things which aren't in any books. But there are more than the two possibilities that either someone lied or Brushy was really Billy the Kid. Brushy could simply have been told by someone who knew the Kid that Billy dated a Sedillos girl. We don't know for how long Brushy might've been interested in the Kid. When he became aware as a young man that he had a great similarity to the Kid people who had been in Lincoln county at the time might've talked to him about all sorts of things and might've come up with tidbits from the Kid's life. That's totally natural. Shen I lived in Princeton many years ago we learned to know many people who were old enough to have known Albert Einstein - some of them quite well. And they told us many annecdotes from his life which were in no book. But do we know for sure they were true? No! So, we don't even know if the Kid really dated a Sedillos girl. That this story was told to Anna Sanchez doesn't mean it's necessarily true. Someone might've bragged about his intimate knowledge of the Kid. He was a celebrity and it's not unusual that aquaintances exaggerate their knowledge. We can only say Brushy had true insicer knowledge if the story of the Kid and the Sedillos girl can be independently verified somehow. And even then Brushy could have gotten true facts of the Kid's life from a third party. I'm not saying that it happened that way. But there are more possible explanations than someone other than Brushy telling lies or Brushy being the Kid.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 27, 2015 14:46:52 GMT -5
xs59, There are two basic and very troubling questions about the credibility of the Brushy Bill legend. What if Billy the Kid was killed in 1881? What if Oliver P. Roberts, a known son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, remained in Van Zandt County? Van Zandt County records prove Oliver Roberts married Anna Lee in 1909, and divorced her in 1910. If either of those statements is true, Brushy Bill could not be Billy the Kid. No credible evidence or records have been found to prove Billy the Kid was alive after July 1881, or that Oliver P. Roberts died, changed his name, or departed for parts unknown after about 1910. Any discussion of girlfriends, photographic similarity, detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County war is moot.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 27, 2015 16:00:31 GMT -5
So who was this person Brushy knew that gave him information from his/her acquaintance with Billy The Kid? And Texas Truth Teller, what if Billy "was not" killed in 1881? What if Oliver P. Roberts did not remain in Van Zandt County?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 27, 2015 17:52:56 GMT -5
"And Texas Truth Teller, what if Billy "was not" killed in 1881? What if Oliver P. Roberts did not remain in Van Zandt County?"
What if, what if, what if. That seems to be the sum total of proof of the Brushy Bill legend.
Facts, facts, facts. That is the documented record of Oliver P. Roberts.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 27, 2015 20:02:43 GMT -5
Quoting your above post,
"What if Billy the Kid was killed in 1881? What if Oliver P. Roberts, a known son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, remained in Van Zandt County?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 27, 2015 20:20:03 GMT -5
"Quoting your above post,
"What if Billy the Kid was killed in 1881? What if Oliver P. Roberts, a known son of Henry Oliver and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, remained in Van Zandt County?"
Neither of those "What ifs" was proposed in an effort to prove that Brushy Bill Roberts was Oliver Pleasant Roberts. That fact is already established with documented records that prove Brushy Bill Roberts was Oliver Pleasant Roberts.
Brushy tried to pass off his half-sister, Martha Roberts Heath, as his cousin. Brushy tried to pass off his father, Henry Oliver Roberts, as his uncle, Henry Roberts. Brushy tried to pass off his mother Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, as his step-mother, Elizabeth Ferguson. He just couldn't keep from borrowing some of his real family members to create his imaginary family. He even used the surname of his father's first wife, Caroline Dunn, as the surname of his imaginary mother, Mary Adeline Dunn.
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Post by nmjames on Oct 28, 2015 1:09:29 GMT -5
Wayne
You wrote according to a September 14, 1990 letter from Jim Tully of Ruidoso Downs, New Mexico to Judge Bob Hefner of Hico, Texas, Mr. Tully stated:
We have been through this before. Frank Randolph (Correct Spelling) was born in late 1870. So you want to tell me a 8 to 10 Frank and Billy dated two girls together.
Again I would like to ask the question where can I find where Brushy or Morrison said that he dated a Sedillo Girl. The reason I ask is because on page 70 of Morrison's book Alias Bill the Kid. Morrison states he visited with Gallegos and told him that he had an old fried in his room. He goes on to say: At my room I introduced my friend as William H. Bonney. Morrison states he took Gallegos home late that night. He states that Gallegos wanted to talk to Brushy the next morning before we left Ruidoso. Morrison goes on to say that he picked up Gallegos at his home late. Morrison states; "When we arrived at my room."
In Oct. or Nov. Severo Gallegos was interviewed in Ruidoso and Gallegos reaffirmed the story of having seen William H. Bonney, correct name of the outlaw, as late as last April (1950). The April meeting took place in a Ruidoso tourist court, Gallegos said.
I don't think Brushy ever went to the Gallegos house. So again can you show me where Brushy stated he dated the Sedillo girl or even knew her. Not the Sedillo family or Jim Tully, where did Brushy Bill Roberts say it.
Thanks.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 28, 2015 8:24:34 GMT -5
Oh come now. We "have" been through this before. Josephine Sanches said Brushy told her that. Do you think she was lying? Or do you think she never said it and Jim Tully was lying? Or do you think Judge Hefner never received such a letter from Tully? Who was lying? And now we have a "second" source confirming that Billy did indeed date a girl named Sedillo. Did you read the second half of that post? So Frank was only 8 to 10 years old at the time (if that is correct?) but that doesn't mean he didn't tell the story to Josephine (maybe he wanted to make more of his participation in the dating than really was there). He didn't say he and Billy saw these two girls together and had an "adult" date. Maybe he was exaggerating his part in it. The question remains, how could Brushy know about it unless he really was Billy The Kid?
As for the visit to Gallegos, it is reported that Gallegos was not there when they tried to visit him at his home. So Morrison didn't think it important to mention. So why would he not include this important event in his book? Is it because Brushy and Josephine spoke in Spanish and Morrison was not aware of what they were saying to each other. Or maybe he didn't see it as something that could be verified and didn't realize it's significance at the time. As Hillary says, "what difference does it make?" Either the story is true, or Hefner/Tully made up the whole thing including the visit to Gallegos' home. So you tell me who you think was lying and why they were motivated to do so.
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