DNA Study

[moescupcakes]

I totally believe Brushy Bill was/is Billy the Kid...………….just wondered why no one thought to give Brushy a simple lie detector test to prove it.

[mckinley412]

Lie tests aren't simple even today and often lawyers advise that you do not take them because they can be manipulated and bias, etc.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Sam,
I think the only possible meaningful DNA test at this time would be a YDNA comparison of a sample from the grave of William Henry Roberts/Brushy Bill Roberts/Oliver Pleasant Roberts, and a sample from a male Roberts descended from Thomas U Roberts.

If the YDNA samples matched, Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid.

[mckinley412]

That is something you would say, Texas Truth Teller. I guess I really do have to log in here and keep an eye on things. I guess its called Mitochondrial DNA and it can only be passed on from a mother to a child... There is some of kind of reason that everyone is ignoring my idea which I've been putting out there for maybe 4-6 years. I ask EVERYONE to quit thinking your ideas are better! You are talking about comparing DNA to Roberts family member! And TTT, you believe Brushy was a relative of that bloodline. Why would you try to come up with your own way when I have been constantly telling people how it could really be done? There is only one and the best way to do it. Either Brushy's DNA is the same as Oliver's mother or it isn't. WE know where Oliver's parents are buried. We know where Brushy is buried. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Why does no one ever repeat this idea? It's not just TTT. So many people are ignoring this. No wonder nothing gets done.

[mckinley412]

for those of you don't understand, Brushy was claiming to be a Roberts but he was claiming to be the son of A Roberts and not Henry Roberts' son. So TTT wants to compare DNA with a Roberts. Brushy always said he was a Roberts. But the woman that married a Roberts and had a son.....nobody wants to see if Brushy doesn't match her..... because Brushy might not match the mother that these debunkers are trying to say was his mother.

[Texas Truth Teller]

Mar 31, 2019 23:56:15 GMT -5 mckinley412 said:

That is something you would say, Texas Truth Teller. I guess I really do have to log in here and keep an eye on things. I guess its called Mitochondrial DNA and it can only be passed on from a mother to a child... There is some of kind of reason that everyone is ignoring my idea which I've been putting out there for maybe 4-6 years. I ask EVERYONE to quit thinking your ideas are better! You are talking about comparing DNA to Roberts family member! And TTT, you believe Brushy was a relative of that bloodline. Why would you try to come up with your own way when I have been constantly telling people how it could really be done? There is only one and the best way to do it. Either Brushy's DNA is the same as Oliver's mother or it isn't. WE know where Oliver's parents are buried. We know where Brushy is buried. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Why does no one ever repeat this idea? It's not just TTT. So many people are ignoring this. No wonder nothing gets done.

mckinley412,
Congratulations. I agree that your suggestion is superior. A YDNA test would show that Brushy Bill and a male Roberts descendant of Thomas U Roberts were closely related. However, diehard skeptics would proclaim that it proves nothing, for Brushy claimed Martha Roberts Heath was his cousin, and that bogus relationship was published in “The Return of the Outlaw”. If Henry Oliver Roberts and the mythical James Henry Roberts were brothers, the YDNA test would prove nothing.

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is passed from a mother to all of her children. If the bodies of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts, wife of Henry Oliver Roberts, and Oliver P Roberts/Brushy Bill Roberts/William Henry Roberts were exhumed, a DNA sample obtained from each, and the mtDNA samples matched, there would be no doubt that Brushy Bill was the son of Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson and Henry Oliver Roberts.

Disinterment is unlikely:

Texas requires a permit. The Application for a Disinterment Permit (VS-271) (doc 39k), must be signed by the funeral director or embalmer licensed by the Texas Funeral Commission making application for the permit. The Disinterment Consent Form (VS-271.1) (doc 24k) must also be completed with signatures of consent from the cemetery, the owner of the plot, and the deceased's next-of-kin.

The third portion of the form entitled Next-of-kin Consent Form must be completed by the next-of-kin in order of priority [HSC §711.004 (a)]:

the decedent's surviving spouse;
the decedent's surviving adult children;
the decedent's surviving parents;
the decedent's adult siblings; or
the adult person in the next degree of kinship in the order named by law to inherit the estate of the decedent.

[mckinley412]

a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo .... they could do it and Hico would have actually done it but they didn't have a plan proposed to them that would make sense. I support them not digging up Brushy at that time. Now there is a plan that makes sense. Already one of that board said they would vote for it with my plan that makes sense.

[kerry]

brushy's real remains should include a bullet in the lower leg area ....just as miller's needed a chest wound.Paulita Maxwell alludes to a local child of Fort Sumner looking remarkably like Billy - perhaps there's a line for DNA ?
I think only Brushy ever claimed to be Billy -- only John Miller knew what really happened the night Billy Cambell took a bullet for Billy the Kid ..??

[clydec]

Mar 31, 2019 3:57:49 GMT -5 Sam Fraser said:

In 2003 Lincoln County Sheriff Tom Sullivan, Capitan, New Mexico Mayor Steve Sederwall, and De Baca County, New Mexico Sheriff Gary Graves began a campaign to exhume the remains of Billy the Kid and his mother, Catherine Antrim, to prove through DNA analysis that it was in fact Billy the Kid buried in Fort Sumner. The initiative hit snags from the beginning. First, there is no confirmation as to where the remains are located. Second were the legalities, with both pro-Brushy Bill Roberts and anti-Brushy Bill Roberts experts protesting the exhumation (Despite their differences in opinion (and sometimes quite vehement disagreements) on many aspects of Billy the Kid/Brushy Bill Roberts, I think deep down they don’t ever want to know the real truth, as then the mystery would end, and I’m fine with it, since the anonimisity is what makes this story that much more interesting). The exhumation of both sets of remains was blocked in court in September 2004.

Problems with DNA testing

The Fort Sumner Cemetery where Billy the Kid was said to have been buried was washed out by the Great Pecos River Flood in 1904. The damage was so great that exposed remains had to be reburied with most being unidentified. Billy's headstone had been washed away and his grave remained unmarked for 28 years. Although a headstone was erected in 1932 it is unknown where the original grave was.

The Silver City cemetery where Catherine Antrim was buried was sold in 1882 with the new owner required to relocate the graves outside the city limits. There is no record to indicate whether the bodies were moved or just the headstones. It is possible that other people had been buried in the same grave. It is possible that she had been originally buried in an unmarked grave with the headstone placed by guesswork later.

Considering the length of time since burial it is likely any remains have decomposed completely and there is a negligible chance of positively identifying remains if any are found.

Roberts claimed Catherine Antrim was not his mother but an aunt related by marriage so a DNA test would be meaningless in any scenario other than Catherine and Billy's remains both being identified, tested and shown to be mother and son.Ss

Actually, Brushy Bill claimed that Catherine McCarthy Antrim was actually his Mothers half sister.  So there should be something in there DNA profiles that show they are related.

[clydec]

Mar 31, 2019 9:53:26 GMT -5 Texas Truth Teller said:

Sam,
I think the only possible meaningful DNA test at this time would be a YDNA comparison of a sample from the grave of William Henry Roberts/Brushy Bill Roberts/Oliver Pleasant Roberts, and a sample from a male Roberts descended from Thomas U Roberts.

If the YDNA samples matched, Brushy Bill was not Billy the Kid.

How would that prove anything?  We already know that Brushy was a Roberts whether or not his was Billy the kid or not.  The real test is to compare Brushy's DNA to the Mother of Oliver P Roberts.  If it is a match then Brushy is not the kid, if it is not a match then he was not Oliver P Roberts and was most likely Billy the Kid.

[leeb]

There are to many fingers in the billy/brushy pie for DNA to ever be an option

[Texas Truth Teller]

"Actually, Brushy Bill claimed that Catherine McCarthy Antrim was actually his Mothers half sister. So there should be something in there DNA profiles that show they are related."

Actually, on p. 33 of "Alias Billy the Kid", the sentences read, "Mrs. Roberts half sister, Mrs. Kathrine Ann 'Kathleen' Bonney, came down from the Indian Territory." "Young Billy lived with Mrs. Bonney (later, Mrs. Antrim)." No mention of McCarty.

Actually, her name was Catherine McCarty. It was not until 1953 that Philip J. Rash and Robert N. Mullin published their discovery of the 1873 marriage of Catherine McCarty and William H. Antrim in Santa Fe, witnessed by her sons, Henry and Joseph McCarty. Only then was it known that she had been known as Catherine McCarty.

Burns, in "The Saga of Billy the Kid", and Garrett and Upson, in "The Authentic life of Billy the Kid" both identified her as Kathleen Bonney.

[lacowboy]

May 6, 2019 15:47:05 GMT -5 Texas Truth Teller said:

"Actually, Brushy Bill claimed that Catherine McCarthy Antrim was actually his Mothers half sister. So there should be something in there DNA profiles that show they are related."

Actually, on p. 33 of "Alias Billy the Kid", the sentences read, "Mrs. Roberts half sister, Mrs. Kathrine Ann 'Kathleen' Bonney, came down from the Indian Territory." "Young Billy lived with Mrs. Bonney (later, Mrs. Antrim)." No mention of McCarty.

Actually, her name was Catherine McCarty. It was not until 1953 that Philip J. Rash and Robert N. Mullin published their discovery of the 1873 marriage of Catherine McCarty and William H. Antrim in Santa Fe, witnessed by her sons, Henry and Joseph McCarty. Only then was it known that she had been known as Catherine McCarty.

Burns, in "The Saga of Billy the Kid", and Garrett and Upson, in "The Authentic life of Billy the Kid" both identified her as Kathleen Bonney.

Actually the passage is on page 16 not 33 and if you look at the footnote at the bottom you'd fine reference to a 1905 article saying Billy was known as McCarty. So much for it not being known till 1953. Now Jim when will you ever stop telling all of your lies. You're wrong always have been and always will be. The only thing you're good at is genealogy and then at times you even screw that up.

[Texas Truth Teller]

May 8, 2019 9:47:14 GMT -5 lacowboy said:

May 6, 2019 15:47:05 GMT -5 Texas Truth Teller said:

"Actually, Brushy Bill claimed that Catherine McCarthy Antrim was actually his Mothers half sister. So there should be something in there DNA profiles that show they are related."

Actually, on p. 33 of "Alias Billy the Kid", the sentences read, "Mrs. Roberts half sister, Mrs. Kathrine Ann 'Kathleen' Bonney, came down from the Indian Territory." "Young Billy lived with Mrs. Bonney (later, Mrs. Antrim)." No mention of McCarty.

Actually, her name was Catherine McCarty. It was not until 1953 that Philip J. Rash and Robert N. Mullin published their discovery of the 1873 marriage of Catherine McCarty and William H. Antrim in Santa Fe, witnessed by her sons, Henry and Joseph McCarty. Only then was it known that she had been known as Catherine McCarty.

Burns, in "The Saga of Billy the Kid", and Garrett and Upson, in "The Authentic life of Billy the Kid" both identified her as Kathleen Bonney.

Actually the passage is on page 16 not 33 and if you look at the footnote at the bottom you'd fine reference to a 1905 article saying Billy was known as McCarty. So much for it not being known till 1953. Now Jim when will you ever stop telling all of your lies. You're wrong always have been and always will be. The only thing you're good at is genealogy and then at times you even screw that up.

“Alias Billy the Kid” was published by the University of New Mexico press in 1955.
“Alias Billy the Kid” published recently, copyright 2014, by Creative Text Publishers of Barto, PA.
Pages are numbered differently in the two versions of “Alias Billy the Kid”.
The latter publication does not include this footnote from the 1955 book:
“Another story, current in Silver City, says that Billy the Kid was really named McCartney.  See the New Mexico Magazine for December, 1948, for a reprint of an interview with H. H. Whitehill, published in a Silver City newspaper "about 1905."

Please note that the spelling in the footnote is, MCCARTNEY, not McCarty.

The same story was printed in the Alamogordo paper. This is from the Alamorgordo News, page 7, December 9, 1948:
H. H. Whitehill, a 5 term county sheriff was interviewed by a reporter.
Excerpt: "Billy's right name, you know, was Henry McCarty, and he was born at Anderson, Indiana."

Information cited in the original post is correct.

The first credible document that correctly identified the name of Billy the Kid’s mother, Catherine McCarty, was the 1 March 1873 Santa Fe, NM, marriage record of William H. Antrim and Catherine McCarty, the discovery published in 1953.  There is no record of Brushy Bill indicating his "step-aunt" was ever named McCarty.  That information became became public knowledge 3 years after Brushy's death.

Accurate research is important.

Good luck in your research.

[lacowboy]

May 9, 2019 10:54:19 GMT -5 Texas Truth Teller said:

[“Alias Billy the Kid” was published by the University of New Mexico press in 1955.
“Alias Billy the Kid” published recently, copyright 2014, by Creative Text Publishers of Barto, PA.
Pages are numbered differently in the two versions of “Alias Billy the Kid”.
The latter publication does not include this footnote from the 1955 book:
“Another story, current in Silver City, says that Billy the Kid was really named McCartney.  See the New Mexico Magazine for December, 1948, for a reprint of an interview with H. H. Whitehill, published in a Silver City newspaper "about 1905."

Please note that the spelling in the footnote is, MCCARTNEY, not McCarty.

The same story was printed in the Alamogordo paper. This is from the Alamorgordo News, page 7, December 9, 1948:
H. H. Whitehill, a 5 term county sheriff was interviewed by a reporter.
Excerpt: "Billy's right name, you know, was Henry McCarty, and he was born at Anderson, Indiana."

Information cited in the original post is correct.

The first credible document that correctly identified the name of Billy the Kid’s mother, Catherine McCarty, was the 1 March 1873 Santa Fe, NM, marriage record of William H. Antrim and Catherine McCarty, the discovery published in 1953.  There is no record of Brushy Bill indicating his "step-aunt" was ever named McCarty.  That information became became public knowledge 3 years after Brushy's death.

Accurate research is important.

Good luck in your research.

Have you been read the book Jim? If you had you'd know that Billy doesn't say much of anything about his past later than age 12. You can't prove that his aunts name wasn't Bonney at the time she picked him up and started raising him. It says she covered her tracks very well. Perhaps she changed her name to McCarty at some point before marrying Antrim. The point you try to make by saying he never mentioned the name McCarty is meaningless.