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Post by chivato88 on Nov 18, 2023 18:05:41 GMT -5
Why are you still bringing Geneva into the discussions? She has never met Brushy, and Ive that answer for the 1000th time now. Its getting old quite frankly
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Post by cassandra jane on Nov 18, 2023 18:43:03 GMT -5
Gee TTT, sometimes when responding to your posts I start to feel like a broken record. Yes, Oliver P Roberts was required to register for the WWI draft. Yes, it is well known that Brushy claimed to be Oliver Roberts. All the evidence supporting Brushy's claim he was BTK would also, by inference, indicate that the real Oliver left Van Zandt County after the divorce from Anna Lee and you can't prove he didn't. Do you have any evidence that the person who registered in the WWI draft as Oliver P. Roberts was the "real" Oliver? Brushy never claimed he was Oliver P Roberts. That is a myth. There is nothing in “Alias Billy the Kid” that even suggests Brushy assumed the identity of Oliver P Roberts. That is an unsubstantiated and far fetched assumption based on his marriages to Mollie Brown, Louticia Ballard, and Melinda Allison. Each appears in official records as the wife of Oliver Roberts. Oliver Roberts was in the household of his father, Henry O Roberts, in the 1900 census of Hopkins County. Both Oliver Roberts and Henry O Roberts were heads of household in the 1910 census of Van Zandt County. Both Oliver Roberts and Henry O Roberts lived in Arkinda, Little River County, Arkansas, before 1920. By "inference", this proves Henry O Roberts was the father of Oliver Pleasant Roberts who lived in Arkinda, Arkansas, when he registered for the WWI draft. There is no evidence of any kind, only speculation and assumptions, that Oliver Roberts, son of Henry O Roberts, died before 1950. Please review these facts: The WWI draft card of Oliver Pleasant Roberts has a birth date of 26 August 1878. The 1900 census record of Oliver P Roberts has a birth date of August 1879. The 1987 letter from Oliver’s niece, Geneva Robert Pittman, stated Oliver P Roberts was Brushy’s name, and that he was born 26 August 1879. Kind of just broke apart your own argument there I reckon.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 18, 2023 18:43:21 GMT -5
chivato88, I am not going to argue with you are anyone else, but you are wrong. Geneva's dad was Thomas U. Roberts, the brother of Oliver P. Roberts who said he was Brushy Bill Roberts. Geneva was born in 1918. Brushy lived with Tom and even Geneva at different times. Besides that, Geneva had an aunt by the name of Mary C. Roberts Adams who was Tom and Brushy's sister born April 17, 1878, who helped Brushy at different times. So, the story that Oliver P. Roberts left for several years and then returned is not true. He moved to Arkansas after he married Mollie and after she died in 1919 Brushy live with different family members at different times. To say that Brushy's own mother and father, sisters and brothers wouldn't know him...........well you figure it out.
Billy the Kid died on or about July 14, 1881. Research it with an open mind. It was in all the newspapers in 1881 as was the Corners Report, which was filed in Santa Fe, in the 1st. District to Wm. Breeden. Pat Garrett did collect the rewards. One in Jan. 1881 for the capture of Billy and the other one in 1882 for killing Billy. The reason that Garrett had to wait until 1882 was in 1880 when Wallace offered the reward, he did it the correct way and did an official offer. You can see it in Morrison's book on page 115. The second time when Wallace offered the reward in May of 1881. He didn't take time to do the paperwork, so it was like he made a personal offer and not the Territory of New Mexico. You can find all of this in Morrison's book. I can back all of this up.
Thanks and again, I will not argue with you or anyone else.
nmjames
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 18, 2023 19:30:09 GMT -5
Because registration was mandatory and he was living under the alias of Oliver P. Roberts, who would have been required to register. If Brushy had not registered, the authorities might have come to his house to get him. What was he going to do then, suddenly admit he was a fraud? Oliver P Roberts was required to register for the WWI draft. Did Brushy ever claim to be Oliver Roberts? Is there any evidence that Oliver Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts, permanently disappeared from Van Zandt County after he divorced Anna Lee in 1910? If the newspaper article from 1916 is to be believed then Roberts was essentially gone for the better part of 15 years, with short periods of being home, as he married in 1912-1913. So it lends a minute bit of credibility that "Lone Brushy Bill" might not have been the same Oliver Pleasant Roberts as in the census records. Of course it might all be nonsense, but it shows one thing: either he was claiming to be Billy The Kid as far back to the 1910s, or he was simply telling other tall unrelated stories as early as the 1910s. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by chivato88 on Nov 18, 2023 19:51:40 GMT -5
Oliver P Roberts was required to register for the WWI draft. Did Brushy ever claim to be Oliver Roberts? Is there any evidence that Oliver Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts, permanently disappeared from Van Zandt County after he divorced Anna Lee in 1910? If the newspaper article from 1916 is to be believed then Roberts was essentially gone for the better part of 15 years, with short periods of being home, as he married in 1912-1913. So it lends a minute bit of credibility that "Lone Brushy Bill" might not have been the same Oliver Pleasant Roberts as in the census records. Of course it might all be nonsense, but it shows one thing: either he was claiming to be Billy The Kid as far back to the 1910s, or he was simply telling other tall unrelated stories as early as the 1910s. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all He told his story in 1908 to the Bolieu family, apparently footnotes are in the possession of the descendants that I tried to contact a number of times. So I think you're right that he was claiming to be the Kid at that time.
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 18, 2023 19:54:13 GMT -5
chivato88, I am not going to argue with you are anyone else, but you are wrong. Geneva's dad was Thomas U. Roberts, the brother of Oliver P. Roberts who said he was Brushy Bill Roberts. Geneva was born in 1918. Brushy lived with Tom and even Geneva at different times. Besides that, Geneva had an aunt by the name of Mary C. Roberts Adams who was Tom and Brushy's sister born April 17, 1878, who helped Brushy at different times. So, the story that Oliver P. Roberts left for several years and then returned is not true. He moved to Arkansas after he married Mollie and after she died in 1919 Brushy live with different family members at different times. To say that Brushy's own mother and father, sisters and brothers wouldn't know him...........well you figure it out. Do you have census evidence of Oliver P. Roberts living in the residence of Thomas? Or Mary? Or Geneva? Or all these "other family members"? Usually there was yearly or bi-yearly censuses or even censuses every 5 years in some jurisdictions. Even if somebody was just a guest in the household at that moment, they had to be noted. If you can find censuses with his name on them under those households (not including Henry's we've heard that song and dance enough from TTT) then you'll have a pretty good case, because you have essentially a 3 year window to work with. He allegedly stepped into the identity of "cousin Ollie" somewhere between 1910-1912. If "cousin Ollie" died but appears on a census in those places, then the story is definitely bunk because according to Brushy he went straight to the home of Henry Oliver Roberts to live. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by nmjames on Nov 18, 2023 23:37:28 GMT -5
billybarowofficial, in answer to your question I only have the same census that TTT has from 1880 - 1950 when Brushy died. What I do have are newspaper articles where Geneva said that Brushy was not Billy the Kid, a copy of the page from the family bible and a copy of the letter to the BTK Outlaw Gang. I also have a letter from one of the older researchers that interviewed family members of Brushy. I can't share them, but you can listen to Ms. Cooper, and I think it comes from the same place she found her information. (Listen to talk 72 & 73). If you have Roy Haws book on page 43 & 44 Geneva Pittmon said that Oliver lived with her family a number of years throughout her life as a girl growing up. She remembers him quite well, has pictures of him and so on. You can read it in Mr. Haws book.
One of Mary Cordelia Roberts Adam's daughters lived in Carlsbad. I have information from another researcher where he says Brushy stayed with her and her mother from time to time. I always wondered how Brushy knew about Phoenix at Carlsbad (Page 21 Morrison's book) (A little side note: My oldest sister knew Geneva Pittmon but that doesn't mean anything. The only thing I remember my sister talking about was the book Mean as Hell by Dee Harkey that Geneva told her about. Talked about on page 21 of Morrison's book.
So. are you saying because I don't have any census records saying that Brushy lived with Tom or any of his other family members from time to time or went to him in time of need, that Geneva Pittmon was not kin to Olive P. Roberts? If so, I guess my uncles that lived with us from time to time were not my dad's or mother's brothers because I don't have any census records for them. (Just joking)
nmjames
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Nov 19, 2023 1:06:59 GMT -5
billybarowofficial, in answer to your question I only have the same census that TTT has from 1880 - 1950 when Brushy died. What I do have are newspaper articles where Geneva said that Brushy was not Billy the Kid, a copy of the page from the family bible and a copy of the letter to the BTK Outlaw Gang. I also have a letter from one of the older researchers that interviewed family members of Brushy. I can't share them, but you can listen to Ms. Cooper, and I think it comes from the same place she found her information. (Listen to talk 72 & 73). If you have Roy Haws book on page 43 & 44 Geneva Pittmon said that Oliver lived with her family a number of years throughout her life as a girl growing up. She remembers him quite well, has pictures of him and so on. You can read it in Mr. Haws book. One of Mary Cordelia Roberts Adam's daughters lived in Carlsbad. I have information from another researcher where he says Brushy stayed with her and her mother from time to time. I always wondered how Brushy knew about Phoenix at Carlsbad (Page 21 Morrison's book) (A little side note: My oldest sister knew Geneva Pittmon but that doesn't mean anything. The only thing I remember my sister talking about was the book Mean as Hell by Dee Harkey that Geneva told her about. Talked about on page 21 of Morrison's book. So. are you saying because I don't have any census records saying that Brushy lived with Tom or any of his other family members from time to time or went to him in time of need, that Geneva Pittmon was not kin to Olive P. Roberts? If so, I guess my uncles that lived with us from time to time were not my dad's or mother's brothers because I don't have any census records for them. (Just joking) nmjames Mind you, I'm not a believer that Brushy was Billy The Kid. However, I grasp that the claim rests entirely upon the notion or idea that a man in his late 30s or 40s stepped into the identity of a deceased cousin who died in the Indian territory. Because of this there would be no record of an Oliver Pleasant Roberts having died, because after all Brushy continued "living" on the behalf of the dead cousin he most likely buried himself. Now, I am going to ignore the fact that story has so many holes in it but let's not try to make sense of it all. There's a short window of time from when OP Roberts divorces Anna Lee, and when OP Roberts marries his next wife. If it can be proved that he appears on censuses in that timeframe other than Henry's place, then it shows that the story is bogus. I'd suggest looking at censuses for Thomas, Mary, etc. and on the flipside I would suggest that the Brushy crowd try to find evidence of "Lone Brushy Bill" in Oregon, Wyoming, etc in that same span of time to show their side is concrete too. Furthermore, I would suggest trying to find the grandchildren of Anna Lee Barnes to see if they have any recollections or photos or diaries from their grandmother that she was married to Brushy Bill Roberts or if Oliver Pleasant Roberts was somebody different. I'm reminded of when I did genealogy on the Ogden side (or was it Dunn side?) of Brushy's family and there was a man named Oliver Pleasant who was noted as missing. Perhaps this was the inspiration of the story for Brushy. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by gladstone on Nov 26, 2023 12:05:27 GMT -5
Why are you still bringing Geneva into the discussions? She has never met Brushy, and Ive that answer for the 1000th time now. Its getting old quite frankly Geneva his niece?
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 26, 2023 12:51:40 GMT -5
TTT - Broken records don't work.
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Post by Wayne Land on Nov 26, 2023 13:03:06 GMT -5
We have to assume Geneva did meet Brushy. But as a child she was told he was her uncle Oliver. He was already using that alias when she was born. Why would she not believe that? Of course she believed it. Maybe there was a family Bible in her possession that listed Oliver P. born in 1879. Why wouldn't there be? Oliver P. "was" born in 1879. None of that, absolutely "none" of it proves Brushy was the real Oliver P. Roberts.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Nov 26, 2023 13:59:18 GMT -5
Why are you still bringing Geneva into the discussions? She has never met Brushy, and Ive that answer for the 1000th time now. Its getting old quite frankly Did you see this? This is from the post of nmjames on Nov 18, 2023. “If you have Roy Haws book on page 43 & 44 Geneva Pittmon said that Oliver lived with her family a number of years throughout her life as a girl growing up. She remembers him quite well, has pictures of him and so on. You can read it in Mr. Haws book.” To refresh your memory, Brushy said that Martha Heath was one of his relatives. Records prove that Martha Roberts Heath was a half-sister of Oliver P Roberts. Records prove that Roy Haws was the great-grandson of Martha Vada Roberts Heath.
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Post by chivato88 on Nov 26, 2023 16:19:48 GMT -5
Why are you still bringing Geneva into the discussions? She has never met Brushy, and Ive that answer for the 1000th time now. Its getting old quite frankly Did you see this? This is from the post of nmjames on Nov 18, 2023. “If you have Roy Haws book on page 43 & 44 Geneva Pittmon said that Oliver lived with her family a number of years throughout her life as a girl growing up. She remembers him quite well, has pictures of him and so on. You can read it in Mr. Haws book.” To refresh your memory, Brushy said that Martha Heath was one of his relatives. Records prove that Martha Roberts Heath was a half-sister of Oliver P Roberts. Records prove that Roy Haws was the great-grandson of Martha Vada Roberts Heath. I know Roy Haws book. But where's the proof that Brushy lived there? Where's the census record? I have not seen it, and like Wayne said above, if he did lived with them, he already taken the alias of Oliver P.
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Post by nmjames on Nov 26, 2023 19:18:24 GMT -5
chivato88: Where is the proof that Brushy didn't live there? Also where is the proof that his real name was William H. Roberts that was kin to the Oliver P. Roberts family? Tell me also why Brushy had to use a cousin's name when no one had ever heard of Billy the Kid's last name being Roberts? Show me anywhere that it says Billy the Kid's last name was Roberts.
nmjames
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Post by nmjames on Nov 26, 2023 19:32:23 GMT -5
gladstone: Geneva was the daughter of Tom Roberts, the brother of Brushy Billy Roberts. Brushy was born in 1879 and Tom was born about 1885. There was about six years difference between them. Tom would have known growing up if Oliver P. was six years older or 26 years older. Brushy also had a sister that was born in April of 1878 that would have known if Brushy was the real Oliver P. Roberts or someone else. Tom and Brushy were very close all the way through Brushy's life. Brushy people have to say Brushy was not Oliver P. Roberts because he was born in 1879. All they can do is to try and keep this story going because if Brushy was Oliver P., end of story.
nmjames
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