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Post by RonBk on Dec 2, 2023 8:27:10 GMT -5
So Gale Cooper quoted an unpublished book which in turn claimed it directly quoted certain persons about things they had heard from other people?
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 2, 2023 13:46:27 GMT -5
J Frank Dalton was claiming to be BTK, then Frank Dalton, the US Marshall, then decided he was Jesse James. Meanwhile his 'pal' Brushy was also pretending to be Frank Dalton, but then decide he was BTK when J Frank was finished being him?
Is there any timeline on this?
I've not heard the J Frank BTK, or as I said above, the Brushy / Frank Dalton claims.
J Frank is a very interesting character, and there's enough intrigue to think he was somebody...as he knew weird titbits....sound familiar?
A timeline of the multiple Frank Dalton / BTK claims would be interesting.
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 2, 2023 14:06:19 GMT -5
But apparently 5+ family members, the sons and daughters or grandchildren of the siblings of Brushy Bill Roberts, all told Cline that their parents and their grandparents were all at a loss as what to do with Brushy because he was in need of constant care and was always up to some sort of mischief. Anecdotes from local residents of Hico also seem to confirm the family stories that he was a man with dementia or mental illness. I tend to think that when he died, it was his family's decision to have him wear a suit. To look like a normal individual, rather than the man who wore brightly colored homemade cowboy clothes and large cowboy hats he was known to wear around Hico. All of his possessions ended up in the hands of Melinda's children. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all I have experience of a relative who's actually very capable, but has some unresolved issues which only the family are aware of, outwardly many people think this individual is very odd, including clothing, behaviour, and apparent delusions, but they're actually an intelligent individual behind the bizarre behaviour.. It's difficult to see the true picture sometimes. Just a reference to show how similar situations still arise today
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 2, 2023 15:58:59 GMT -5
So Gale Cooper quoted an unpublished book which in turn claimed it directly quoted certain persons about things they had heard from other people? That doesn't bother me because after all we quote Ola Everhard's unpublished book on Dalton, and even scholars in other fields of interest quote unpublished books like Thomas More's History of Richard III with alleged quotes and details from eyewitnesses: Although to be fair, many believe More was writing a work of fiction (an allegory to be precise) concerning issues of the day using the dethroned monarch as a symbol of corruption during the reign of Henry VIII. BUT, far as I know the family who corresponded with Cline all confirm that they did and that those were their opinions or recollections of different timed and events concerning Brushy. So it's not a matter of "claimed it directly quoted," but did indeed directly quote. Mind you Brushy lived until 1950 and the majority of those who wrote Cline were adults when Brushy passed away. They would've had strong memories and recollections of their parents and grandparents and Brushy himself. I'm sure we can all relate to one degree or another of hearing conversations in our families about crazy relatives, drama due to a wayward relative, etc or having direct relationships with those individuals. So if everybody thought he was mentally ill, or was just a wild dreamer, it does seem to raise suspicions that coincide with the changes to his birthdate, etc. Mind you, I don't think everything he said was a lie but I think he heard so many stories about his family and their associates and talked to so many old timers, etc that it created a fantasy world. I wouldn't say he was completely crazy. After all he had the presence of mind to keep saying he was born in 1868 in order to get that social security check. Only near the end did he throw all caution to the wind claiming 1859 as his birthdate. Anyways I am going to try to find this unpublished book if I can and see if it accounts for his whereabouts between 1910-1912, because Cooper implied that if he wasn't in Arkansas he was in Oklahoma or Texas living in the households of Henry, Thomas and Martha. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 2, 2023 17:11:34 GMT -5
J Frank Dalton was claiming to be BTK, then Frank Dalton, the US Marshall, then decided he was Jesse James. Meanwhile his 'pal' Brushy was also pretending to be Frank Dalton, but then decide he was BTK when J Frank was finished being him? Is there any timeline on this? I've not heard the J Frank BTK, or as I said above, the Brushy / Frank Dalton claims. J Frank is a very interesting character, and there's enough intrigue to think he was somebody...as he knew weird titbits....sound familiar? A timeline of the multiple Frank Dalton / BTK claims would be interesting. The time line is tricky because Dalton went by several aliases throughout his life, much like "Uncle Kit Carson" Ora Woodhouse. But according to rare book dealer Ed Bartholomew at a Corpus Christie Texas old-timers convention in 1933 Dalton was calling himself Billy The Kid and that Dalton was using the last name of Dolby or Darby. Throughout the 1930s Dalton was also calling himself US Marshall Frank Dalton. It wasn't until 1936 that Dalton started spinning yarns in the Crittenden Memoirs about Jesse James potentially faking his death. In 1947 he officially declares himself to be Jesse James courtesy of Orvus Lee Howk/Houck claiming to be the grandson of Jesse James, and Howk acted as Dalton's manager. I suspect that Dalton might've been claiming to be various people as early as the 1910s-1920s. As far as Brushy Bill Roberts goes... I had to rewatch the video Gale Cooper did but it wasnt Frank Dalton he pretended to be it was Frank James... the real Frank James gave a lecture series sometime in 1915 before his death, and the family believe Brushy saw this show. And following the death of Frank James started saying he was Frank James. youtu.be/mMIx6ELe0i4?si=wUgA89tS7E5yc9J4@ 22:15 ... from 1912-1915 Frank James gave tours of the family home, etc... when Brushy started calling himself Frank James he was living with Thomas at the time and was kicked out and sent to live with Thomas's daughter Cordelia. Considering the earliest newspaper report we can find on Brushy is 1916 and he begins telling tales of exploits, it seems to be accurate that in 1915 he became delusional although Cooper notes as early as 1910 he changed his parents place of origin in census records (Kentucky). Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 2, 2023 18:39:13 GMT -5
It doesn't bother me either to have this information, I think this is great and valuable for the investigation. However we should recognize this is not "hard evidence", it is fourth hand information. Not sure I would call it 4th hand information. When a third party collects data from 1st and 2nd hand sources, it's still 1st and 2nd hand information. Siblings and nieces/nephews who were all adults with years of memories of Brushy Bill Roberts. Us quoting these individuals would make us third hand, but the chain of custody is quite clear: Family> Cline> Readers of Cline's work. As far as the siblings and nieces and nephews were concerned Brushy was basically a welfare case due to his mental instability. Thomas and Martha were more than old enough to recognize whether he was their brother or not. After all Martha was Caroline Dunn's daughter, not Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Heath's. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by RonBk on Dec 3, 2023 2:39:53 GMT -5
You made a change to the story yourself by mistake claiming that Gale Cooper said that Cline said that relatives said Brushy claimed he was Frank Dalton and then you corrected this to Frank James. So if you consider this, how can you be sure none of the others made mistakes? Cline may have got something wrong or Cooper got it wrong or both?
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 3, 2023 5:04:01 GMT -5
You made a change to the story yourself by mistake claiming that Gale Cooper said that Cline said that relatives said Brushy claimed he was Frank Dalton and then you corrected this to Frank James. So if you consider this, how can you be sure none of the others made mistakes? Cline may have got something wrong or Cooper got it wrong or both? I also called Donald Cline another name by accident. Minor mistakes like that are different than multiple family members all basically corroborating each other's assessment that their brother and uncle was mentally unwell. People forget, Brushy was the 6th child of Henry's. Samantha (1871), Martha (1874), Infant, Andrew (1877), Cordelia (1878), then Brushy (1879), John (1881), Lonnie (1884), Thomas (1884), Nora (1892), and Joseph (1895). Brushy lived with Martha and Cordelia at different times, as well as his brother Thomas who was 5 years younger than Brushy. But if you think about it, every single one of the siblings including Joseph (age 15 in 1910) would have known without question whether there would have been a switch or not. All denied such a thing occurred. All denied he was anything else but the son a farmer and he couldn't keep a job. And then the problem is all the more compounded by nieces or nephews when they became adults who became caretakers of their uncle too and recounted memories of what their parents and grandparents said of their uncle. They were all consistent in their testimonies to Donald Cline. Whether anyone likes it or not all who corresponded with Cline said that their uncle or brother was not Billy The Kid. They were all old enough to have known whether a switch occurred or not, and they all lived in close proximity to each other so even the ones not living at home would've seen their parents regularly and would've said, "Why is mom and dad calling cousin William our brother Oliver?" had there really been a switch. It simply didn't happen. Successful conspiracies require the least amount of people possible. Are we to believe that eleven people including neighbors and family friends and those people's kids and friends kept completely quiet about a switch? Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by RonBk on Dec 3, 2023 9:11:57 GMT -5
Yeah I get your point, but still the source for the all of this seems unclear. Gale Cooper claims she got this from an unpublished book. So we have to trust Cooper's word, and she appears to have an agenda to talk down Brushy and Morrison. Im not so sure she is trustworthy, she doesn't seem objective in her work? I get the feeling she really hates Brushy and Morrison on a personal level?
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Post by texas truth teller on Dec 3, 2023 11:45:24 GMT -5
Yeah I get your point, but still the source for the all of this seems unclear. Gale Cooper claims she got this from an unpublished book. So we have to trust Cooper's word, and she appears to have an agenda to talk down Brushy and Morrison. Im not so sure she is trustworthy, she doesn't seem objective in her work? I get the feeling she really hates Brushy and Morrison on a personal level? If you believe Brushy, DO NOT WATCH COOPER'S VIDEO SEGMENTS 48,49, and 50 ABOUT BRUSHY, MORRISON, & SONNICHSEN. www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMIx6ELe0i4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMIx6ELe0i4Gale Cooper did not admire any of them. Records and city directories confirm that Morrison was a grocer, auto parts salesman, and real estate broker.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 3, 2023 12:10:34 GMT -5
So Gale Cooper quoted an unpublished book which in turn claimed it directly quoted certain persons about things they had heard from other people? Donald Cline published a book in 1986, "Alias Billy the Kid, the Man Behind the Legend". Cline listed 9 pages of bibliographic sources, including newspapers. books, census records, libraries, museums, county and state records, etc. This implies Cline's unpublished book quoted by Cooper was based on sources and references. There is no guarantee that the unpublished book was free of errors.
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Post by RonBk on Dec 3, 2023 12:18:27 GMT -5
Is this Donald Cline the fertility fraud doctor who is the father of 94 children?
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Post by MissyS on Dec 3, 2023 14:45:59 GMT -5
With respect to Gale Cooper, I haven’t read any of her books, but it sounds like she’s passionate about her research and her writings. I question some of what has been posted on the thread here about some things. As far as the town folk and Brushy’s mental issue go, a person back in the day could be labeled mentally unstable if they claimed they saw a UFO, so if someone in town mentions being someone famous that history says is long dead then it’s understandable to me that that person would be considered not all there, but that doesn’t mean that what he said wasn’t true. As far as the family, these are person’s close to Brushy and their word is hard to dispute, but this is information that’s coming from possibly an unreliable source. And the fact that he wasn’t committed makes me wonder about the credibility of it. As far as Morrison being a grocer and auto parts salesman and real estate broker. Brushy had another lawyer Ted Andress and I don’t recall reading that he or Morrison seen a need for Brushy to get a mental evaluation? Brushy apparently didn’t seem to show to them that he had any mental issues at the time they represented him.
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Post by chivato88 on Dec 3, 2023 15:03:30 GMT -5
Is this Donald Cline the fertility fraud doctor who is the father of 94 children? That made me laugh, I almost spilled my coffee lol
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Post by cassandra jane on Dec 3, 2023 15:12:28 GMT -5
With respect to Gale Cooper, I haven’t read any of her books, but it sounds like she’s passionate about her research and her writings. I question some of what has been posted on the thread here about some things. As far as the town folk and Brushy’s mental issue go, a person back in the day could be labeled mentally unstable if they claimed they saw a UFO, so if someone in town mentions being someone famous that history says is long dead then it’s understandable to me that that person would be considered not all there, but that doesn’t mean that what he said wasn’t true. As far as the family, these are person’s close to Brushy and their word is hard to dispute, but this is information that’s coming from possibly an unreliable source. And the fact that he wasn’t committed makes me wonder about the credibility of it. As far as Morrison being a grocer and auto parts salesman and real estate broker. Brushy had another lawyer Ted Andress and I don’t recall reading that he or Morrison seen a need for Brushy to get a mental evaluation? Brushy apparently didn’t seem to show to them that he had any mental issues at the time they represented him. That’s because people like to use mental health as a weapon against anyone who doesn’t fit neatly without resistance into society’s rigid boxes. Brushy is no different. I’m neutral on him being the Kid and most likely wasn’t but I get so sick of people acting like or outright calling him a crazy old liar. If you’re going to assume he had mental health difficulties or some sort of brain injury that left him traumatised and behaviourally altered in that census record gap, at least treat said issues and said person with genuine compassion, and not for brownie points either.
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