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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Aug 18, 2022 0:02:01 GMT -5
1880 census Olover Roberts, age 1
1900 census Oliver P Roberts, age 20
1910 census Oliver P Roberts, age 30
1918 WWI Draft Registration, Oliver Pleasant Roberts, age 40
1920 census Oliver P Roberts, age 41
1930 census Oliver Roberts, age 52
1940 census Ollie Roberts, age 70
1950 census O L Roberts, age 88
1950 Death Certificate Ollie L Roberts, age 81
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 27, 2022 19:51:52 GMT -5
Well let's see. from 1880 to 1900 Oliver P. Roberts aged @20 years. That's normal I think.
From 1900 to 1910 he aged another ten. OK with that too!
From 1910 to 1918 he aged 10 (not 8). Could that be because the person reporting to the draft was using an alias and had to guess at the age?
From 1918 to 1920 he aged only 1 year. Again a bit fishy. Maybe someone wasn't who they were claiming to be.
From 1920 to 1930 he aged 11 years. OK
From 1930 to 1940 he aged 18 years, then from 1940 to 1950 another 18 years. Maybe he was beginning to look his real age or had some other reason to be more truthful.
Death Certificate information wasn't likely provided by Brushy himself. He was dead. The real Oliver P. would have been about 70. Why did someone believe Brushy was 81? Maybe because the real Oliver L. Roberts, born in 1868 would have been 81?
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Post by DanJohno on Aug 28, 2022 5:00:24 GMT -5
1880 census Olover Roberts, age 1 1900 census Oliver P Roberts, age 20 1910 census Oliver P Roberts, age 30 1918 WWI Draft Registration, Oliver Pleasant Roberts, age 40 1920 census Oliver P Roberts, age 41 1930 census Oliver Roberts, age 52 1940 census Ollie Roberts, age 70 1950 census O L Roberts, age 88 1950 Death Certificate Ollie L Roberts, age 81 You recently said all the census records with wrong dates are credible. But the man whose life these census records represents is not credible. You regularly post dictionary meanings of words. Can you please post the dictionary meaning of the word credible and also explain what the word credible means to you? |
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 28, 2022 13:32:56 GMT -5
I should explain the point I was trying to make in my last post. TTT presented this list of census data that doesn't add up as valid unless you assume that Brushy was suddenly aging too fast the last 20 years of his life. Since we know that can't be true then we are to assume he was lying about being BTK, that Brushy was only born in 1879. And if you "assume" that Brushy's true identity was Oliver P. Roberts, born in 1879 then obviously he was not BTK.
I'm saying there are "possible" explanations for all those discrepancies. Maybe even "probable". To spell it out, the real Oliver P. Roberts was born in 1879 making the 1880, 1900, 1910, 1920 and 1930 census records correct. However, from 1910 on, the person living as Oliver P. Roberts was actually BTK/Brushy. So, he knew the correct age of Oliver and reported it correctly to the census. The 1918 Draft Registration is incorrect because for some reason Brushy added a year or so to Oliver's real age. It doesn't matter why he did that but it does help to show the registrant was not the real Oliver P. Roberts. The real one would have given his correct age. Now moving on to the 1940 census when the real Oliver would have been 60. Why would he say he was 70? In my opinion that helps to illustrate the respondent was not the real Oliver. Why make up one number in 1940 and a different one in 1950. That makes no sense until you observe that the birthdate on Brushy's original tombstone read 1868. Which brings me back to my "theory" that there was another cousin besides Oliver P., possibly named Oliver L. who Brushy was originally pretending to be. This other cousin, Oliver L., would have been 71 or 72 depending on the birthday. So it would be easy for Brushy to get the math slightly wrong and say he was 70. That also explains the death certificate in 1950 showed 81 as that information was obviously provided by his widow. But why does the 1950 census show him as 88? That's simply because by that census, he had come out as being BTK and was no longer trying to cover up that identity. So for once, he finally tried to give his correct age and got the math wrong by a year.
I can't prove any of that. Never said I could. But I believe it to be pretty accurate.
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Post by RonBk on Aug 28, 2022 14:36:36 GMT -5
I believe you're right Wayne. Maybe for some reason Brushy was anxious about using the Oliver P identity and therefore wanted to take on a new alias. Perhaps something relating to the disappearance of the real Oliver P? Could also be Brushy himself had done something bad under the time he used that alias? Or he simply fell into his old habit of changing identity every now and then. Lots of possibilities, the least likely one would be he did it to be able to pretend to be Billy the Kid 10 years into the future.
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Post by leeb on Aug 28, 2022 14:47:30 GMT -5
I should explain the point I was trying to make in my last post. TTT presented this list of census data that doesn't add up as valid unless you assume that Brushy was suddenly aging too fast the last 20 years of his life. Since we know that can't be true then we are to assume he was lying about being BTK, that Brushy was only born in 1879. And if you "assume" that Brushy's true identity was Oliver P. Roberts, born in 1879 then obviously he was not BTK. I'm saying there are "possible" explanations for all those discrepancies. Maybe even "probable". To spell it out, the real Oliver P. Roberts was born in 1879 making the 1880, 1900, 1910, 1920 and 1930 census records correct. However, from 1910 on, the person living as Oliver P. Roberts was actually BTK/Brushy. So, he knew the correct age of Oliver and reported it correctly to the census. The 1918 Draft Registration is incorrect because for some reason Brushy added a year or so to Oliver's real age. It doesn't matter why he did that but it does help to show the registrant was not the real Oliver P. Roberts. The real one would have given his correct age. Now moving on to the 1940 census when the real Oliver would have been 60. Why would he say he was 70? In my opinion that helps to illustrate the respondent was not the real Oliver. Why make up one number in 1940 and a different one in 1950. That makes no sense until you observe that the birthdate on Brushy's original tombstone read 1868. Which brings me back to my "theory" that there was another cousin besides Oliver P., possibly named Oliver L. who Brushy was originally pretending to be. This other cousin, Oliver L., would have been 71 or 72 depending on the birthday. So it would be easy for Brushy to get the math slightly wrong and say he was 70. That also explains the death certificate in 1950 showed 81 as that information was obviously provided by his widow. But why does the 1950 census show him as 88? That's simply because by that census, he had come out as being BTK and was no longer trying to cover up that identity. So for once, he finally tried to give his correct age and got the math wrong by a year. I can't prove any of that. Never said I could. But I believe it to be pretty accurate. "Assume ", "Possible "."Probable ".Theory "..Guess work!! |
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Post by leeb on Aug 28, 2022 16:06:23 GMT -5
Time to come clean Wayne, you know brushy wasn't the kid??
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Post by texas truth teller on Aug 28, 2022 19:33:10 GMT -5
Well let's see. from 1880 to 1900 Oliver P. Roberts aged @20 years. That's normal I think. From 1900 to 1910 he aged another ten. OK with that too! From 1910 to 1918 he aged 10 (not 8). Could that be because the person reporting to the draft was using an alias and had to guess at the age? From 1918 to 1920 he aged only 1 year. Again a bit fishy. Maybe someone wasn't who they were claiming to be. From 1920 to 1930 he aged 11 years. OK From 1930 to 1940 he aged 18 years, then from 1940 to 1950 another 18 years. Maybe he was beginning to look his real age or had some other reason to be more truthful. Death Certificate information wasn't likely provided by Brushy himself. He was dead. The real Oliver P. would have been about 70. Why did someone believe Brushy was 81? Maybe because the real Oliver L. Roberts, born in 1868 would have been 81? Not all information found in census records is correct. As long as we are discussing information about Oliver P Roberts found in government records, these would have been the correct ages for Oliver P Roberts in accordance with census instructions: *1880 census, age 1, should have been 10 months 1900 census, age 20; birthplace TX, should have been AR 1910 Census, age 30; birthplace TX, should have been AR **1920 census, age 41, should have been 39; birthplace TX, should have been AR 1930 census, age 52, should have been 50; birthplace TX, should have been AR 1940 census, age 70, should have been 60; birthplace TX, should have been AR 1950 census, age 88, should have been 70; birthplace TX, should have been AR *The age of children less than a year old in the 1880 census were to be reported in months. **The age of individuals in the 1920 census were to be reported as of January 1 rather than June 1 as in other census years. Brushy said he looked young for his age. There is a reason. He was born in 1879. To follow up on the guessing game, no occupation is listed for Oliver after the 1930 census. Both Brushy Bill and J Frank Dalton were residents of Gregg County in 1935, and they were photographed on DeWitt Travis’s ranch. They probably had nothing to do, and talked about the exploits of two famous characters of the west, Jesse James and Billy the Kid. J Frank Dalton signed a sworn affidavit in1948 that he was Jesse Woodson James (after drawing aTexas pension as John Frank Dalton), and Oliver P Roberts told Morrison he was Billy the Kid (funny that Brushy didn’t know that Catherine’s surname was McCarty, not Bonney, since he was a witness when William Antrim and Catherine McCarty were married). Of course, I can’t prove that Dalton and Brushy had theses discussions, but it seems probable. |
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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 29, 2022 12:50:33 GMT -5
Time to come clean Wayne, you know brushy wasn't the kid?? I've had my doubts from time to time but every time I start to doubt, I come across more evidence that he was BTK. I don't believe anyone "knows Brushy wasn't the kid". Maybe you should come clean and admit that he might have been. BTW, there's nothing wrong with the words "might", "possible", "probable", etc. They do not always indicate guessing. They indicate uncertainty but they are legitimate parts of the english language and I reserve the right to use them when I believe they are appropriate without having my entire comment disregarded as a result. |
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Post by leeb on Aug 29, 2022 13:21:01 GMT -5
It seems a bit curious that between 1930/40 brushy's moved to Gladewater texas met with J Frank Dalton and his age changes to coincide with the kids. Is this the time he decided to become a famous old west outlaw?
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Post by RonBk on Aug 29, 2022 14:26:20 GMT -5
It seems a bit curious that between 1930/40 brushy's moved to Gladewater texas met with J Frank Dalton and his age changes to coincide with the kids. Is this the time he decided to become a famous old west outlaw? Now look who is guessing! You just forgot to add a word like "probably" or "theory" 😀 |
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Post by leeb on Aug 29, 2022 14:45:06 GMT -5
It seems a bit curious that between 1930/40 brushy's moved to Gladewater texas met with J Frank Dalton and his age changes to coincide with the kids. Is this the time he decided to become a famous old west outlaw? Now look who is guessing! You just forgot to add a word like "probably" or "theory" 😀 "coincidence " |
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 2, 2023 4:43:38 GMT -5
According to Gale Cooper, largely quoting from an unpublished book by Donald Cline who got letters from Brushy's family members, that they asserted that he changed his age purposely in order to qualify for social security. He had to be over 65 (I think) in order to qualify.
The family asserted that he was not mentally well, and was not a physically gifted man who was prone to injury when working on farms, and these injuries he would call knife and gun wounds. That he lived perpetually at home with his parents, siblings, and nieces or nephews when he wasn't living with his wives who were significantly older than he was.
The family asserted that sometime in the 1910s-1920s he started claiming he was Frank Dalton and this disturbed and annoyed his brother Thomas to the point of him kicking Brushy out of his house. They believe Brushy began believing he was Dalton after having seen a lecture or show featuring Dalton years before.
As time went on the delusions became more and more erratic where his claims or stories in newspapers were constantly changing or becoming more grand, and things said previously were completely undone (ie, Al Roberts vs Wild Henry) and he had to move from town to town because he was getting laughed out of town or avoided by townspeople because he was constantly talking wild stories.
The 1868 birthdate is allegedly the date he needed to qualify for social security. One time he slipped up saying that he was 73 years old in a newspaper article, in order to be consistent with the 1868 birthdate. In either the same article or another he talked about Dalton being Jesse James, and that his father & Kit Carson told George Custer not to fight Sitting Bull; nevermind the fact that Carson died years before the Battle of the Little Bighorn. All in the same timeframe of him claiming to be Billy The Kid to Morrison.
But apparently 5+ family members, the sons and daughters or grandchildren of the siblings of Brushy Bill Roberts, all told Cline that their parents and their grandparents were all at a loss as what to do with Brushy because he was in need of constant care and was always up to some sort of mischief. Anecdotes from local residents of Hico also seem to confirm the family stories that he was a man with dementia or mental illness.
I tend to think that when he died, it was his family's decision to have him wear a suit. To look like a normal individual, rather than the man who wore brightly colored homemade cowboy clothes and large cowboy hats he was known to wear around Hico. All of his possessions ended up in the hands of Melinda's children.
Brushy Bill Roberts would be largely forgotten until Tunstill came around in the 80s and appeared on Unsolved Mysteries, and he managed to dupe Elaine Haws into believing that Brushy's fictional family tree was true getting her endorsement. Had it not been for Tunstill we wouldn't be talking about Brushy today.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by tboor74 on Dec 2, 2023 6:33:11 GMT -5
So both J Frank Dalton AND Brushy, claimed to be Frank Dalton, the US Marshall? I knew about J Frank's claims, not Brushy's.
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Post by billybarlowofficial on Dec 2, 2023 7:30:15 GMT -5
So both J Frank Dalton AND Brushy, claimed to be Frank Dalton, the US Marshall? I knew about J Frank's claims, not Brushy's. According to Gale Cooper who quoted Donald Cline's unpublished book using direct quotes from the Roberts family that's what happened. Apparently it must have been short lived and he changed gears into less sensational claims until he decided he was Billy The Kid. I am reminded of J. Frank Dalton though. According to the book dealer who knew Dalton as "Darby" he said that Dalton briefly called himself Billy The Kid before settling on Jesse James. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all |
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