|
Post by kerry on Sept 27, 2021 15:35:22 GMT -5
3 different accounts proves that he was no more than a story teller a bit like the Billy Barlow folk song. Of the 3 lawmen - Kip was the only one not working for John Chisum ...I think even Pat's victim had worked for Chisum -probably in the same role as Jessie Evans.It is known John Miller fancied himself with a gun....he could have been the sort who would want to impress with a new-fangled Colt such as was recovered from Pete Maxwell's bedroom. I don't believe Billy Wilson's 6 million dollar gun killed anyone on 14 July 1881 nor that BTK ever used the 1878 Colt which was added to his legend thanks to John Miller...
|
|
|
Post by Brushythekid1950 on Sept 27, 2021 16:07:42 GMT -5
3 different accounts proves that he was no more than a story teller a bit like the Billy Barlow folk song. Of the 3 lawmen - Kip was the only one not working for John Chisum ...I think even Pat's victim had worked for Chisum -probably in the same role as Jessie Evans.It is known John Miller fancied himself with a gun....he could have been the sort who would want to impress with a new-fangled Colt such as was recovered from Pete Maxwell's bedroom. I don't believe Billy Wilson's 6 million dollar gun killed anyone on 14 July 1881 nor that BTK ever used the 1878 Colt which was added to his legend thanks to John Miller... He did not us .41 double action guns. He owned a 73' Winchester .44-.40 given to him as a gift by John H. Tunstall. This was not only the gun that won the west, but single action .44 revolvers took the same exact ammunition. It stands to reason that Billy would use single action .44 revolvers, because it would simply be common sense for him to do so and we know for fact that he did. I read the Helen St. Airy book on John Miller years back, but I remember him using long barrel .45's with notches on them. He may have had double actions too, but I do not remember. The problem I have with him being Billy the Kid, is he himself never claimed that. I believe that he worked for John Chisum, and knew Billy the Kid, and he was at Maxwell's that night. When Garrett walked into the hallway of the Maxwell home, John Miller was standing there and Garrett panicked, shot first asked questions later and gut shot Miller. Then Barlow walked up onto the porch, with the double action .41 and McKinney shot him, because Barlow was drunk and armed and McKinney probably in excitement and fear that Barlow would shoot someone in a state of obvious intoxication, shot Barlow dead. Brushy Bill, said that they (he and Jesus Silva) "After a short time we heard shots." "One of their first shots killed my partner." Yeah, Chisum probably sent John Miller (We do not know if that was his real name.) to keep an eye on things, and he got shot in the process.
|
|
|
Post by kerry on Sept 28, 2021 0:22:26 GMT -5
Of the 3 lawmen - Kip was the only one not working for John Chisum ...I think even Pat's victim had worked for Chisum -probably in the same role as Jessie Evans.It is known John Miller fancied himself with a gun....he could have been the sort who would want to impress with a new-fangled Colt such as was recovered from Pete Maxwell's bedroom. I don't believe Billy Wilson's 6 million dollar gun killed anyone on 14 July 1881 nor that BTK ever used the 1878 Colt which was added to his legend thanks to John Miller... He did not us .41 double action guns. He owned a 73' Winchester .44-.40 given to him as a gift by John H. Tunstall. This was not only the gun that won the west, but single action .44 revolvers took the same exact ammunition. It stands to reason that Billy would use single action .44 revolvers, because it would simply be common sense for him to do so and we know for fact that he did. I read the Helen St. Airy book on John Miller years back, but I remember him using long barrel .45's with notches on them. He may have had double actions too, but I do not remember. The problem I have with him being Billy the Kid, is he himself never claimed that. I believe that he worked for John Chisum, and knew Billy the Kid, and he was at Maxwell's that night. When Garrett walked into the hallway of the Maxwell home, John Miller was standing there and Garrett panicked, shot first asked questions later and gut shot Miller. Then Barlow walked up onto the porch, with the double action .41 and McKinney shot him, because Barlow was drunk and armed and McKinney probably in excitement and fear that Barlow would shoot someone in a state of obvious intoxication, shot Barlow dead. Brushy Bill, said that they (he and Jesus Silva) "After a short time we heard shots." "One of their first shots killed my partner." Yeah, Chisum probably sent John Miller (We do not know if that was his real name.) to keep an eye on things, and he got shot in the process. The double action Colt came out 1878... The circa 1879 tin-type clearly shows BTK with a single action Colt. Boze-Bell recently said after Stinking Springs- Garrett gave BTK's pistol to his old boss Beaver Smith because Billy owed Beaver money: no one mentioned this pistol was somehow special... Garrett recorded x2 .44 single action Colts missing after BTK's 1881 escape from Lincoln...less than two months later Garrett recovered a .41 double action Thunderer from the floor of Pete Maxwell's bedroom and so a myth was born. Perhaps this fact supports BTK not being killed by Garrett...Another myth concerns Paulita - the only regular visitor to BTK's grave for over 30 years ( other than cattle getting through the wire) was Deluvina : Paulita did visit the grave a few weeks after it was dug -(at mid -night) only to win a 10 dollar bet off her brother...the next day she didn't even return the wooden cross herself! Nor did she keep Deluvina's tin type for her photo. album..it was given to Charlie Froor whose devotion to the BTK legend did result in a head stone approximately marking the spot that we know today in 1931.
|
|
|
Post by leeb on Sept 29, 2021 13:00:15 GMT -5
Why would a 'Mexican Boy' be in Pete Maxwell's bedroom? The Mexican boy ( with a beard) had died prior to the shooting of Billy Barlow.... To make the deception- Pat and his accomplices had to act quickly to cover up the unauthorized killing. Contrary to what Pat said - the body had to be concealed and buried as soon as possible...and most importantly BTK had to be told not to attend anymore dances this side of the Mexican border. Brushy said the lawmen knew he was still at large because he had made contact with Mckinney along the porch - that Pat sent Celsa to let him know what was going down. The two versions are mutually exclusive - only one is nothing but the truth....which one ? Are you saying that Mr Garrett waltzes up to Mr Maxwell's house with an all ready prepared dead body and then kills the fictional Mr Barlow. That leaves 2 bodies to deal with???. Madness
|
|
|
Post by kerry on Sept 29, 2021 15:22:49 GMT -5
The Mexican boy ( with a beard) had died prior to the shooting of Billy Barlow.... To make the deception- Pat and his accomplices had to act quickly to cover up the unauthorized killing. Contrary to what Pat said - the body had to be concealed and buried as soon as possible...and most importantly BTK had to be told not to attend anymore dances this side of the Mexican border. Brushy said the lawmen knew he was still at large because he had made contact with Mckinney along the porch - that Pat sent Celsa to let him know what was going down. The two versions are mutually exclusive - only one is nothing but the truth....which one ? Are you saying that Mr Garrett waltzes up to Mr Maxwell's house with an all ready prepared dead body and then kills the fictional Mr Barlow. That leaves 2 bodies to deal with???. Madness Unknown to Garrett the body quickly removed from Maxwell's bedroom -was not dead....when the locals invovled found Miller had faked death -they used a pre- deceased Mexican sheep herder's corpse. Even though Garrett was well known to them - they believed if his monstrous fraud was exposed he would use them as a scapegoat...they also had a cover story about BTK being unidentifiable due to being shot in the face with a shotgun blast at close range.Garrett never knew about John Miller surviving and I don't think Brushy did either as surely he would have mentioned it ....
|
|
|
Post by leeb on Oct 1, 2021 12:42:36 GMT -5
Are you saying that Mr Garrett waltzes up to Mr Maxwell's house with an all ready prepared dead body and then kills the fictional Mr Barlow. That leaves 2 bodies to deal with???. Madness Unknown to Garrett the body quickly removed from Maxwell's bedroom -was not dead....when the locals invovled found Miller had faked death -they used a pre- deceased Mexican sheep herder's corpse. Even though Garrett was well known to them - they believed if his monstrous fraud was exposed he would use them as a scapegoat...they also had a cover story about BTK being unidentifiable due to being shot in the face with a shotgun blast at close range.Garrett never knew about John Miller surviving and I don't think Brushy did either as surely he would have mentioned it .... So Mr Garrett didn't shoot brushy or BTK he shot Miller whose faked death body was quickly replaced by a pre packed unknown mexican who we now assume was blasted in the face with a shotgun. Confused?? So am I..They had a proper party that fateful night. Nuts
|
|
|
Post by leeb on Oct 1, 2021 12:46:26 GMT -5
Sorry forgot to mention, where does Barlow fit into this?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 1, 2021 17:16:29 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one.
Now that my friends really "is" Nuts.
|
|
|
Post by kerry on Oct 1, 2021 18:47:35 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one. Now that my friends really "is" Nuts. I think Poe's account shows the two deputies taken completely by surprise as they were facing the parade ground ( Poe sitting on the step and Mckinney outside the gate) because the man who challenged them came from inside the picket fence and quickly stepped up onto the porch and went into Maxwell's bedroom. .Poe said he followed the man but remained outside the door listening to what was said inside -the man sinply asked Pete in English "who are those fellows...? Unlike Garrett's self serving account - Poe doesn't mention Maxwell saying anything .. immediately after the shooting Mckinney positioned outside the picket fence - knew any threat would come along the porch and fired his rifle at an armed figure running towards him- they may have been warning shots but they hit Brushy in the head...the two,deputies hadn't met BTK before and it was Poe's first visit to Fort Sumner and he was in the town during the day under cover- trying to get information without arousing suspicion . According to Poe - it was himself and not Garrett that believed BTK was in or about Fort Sumner -after the escape from Lincoln jail Garrett's informants who had helped capture BTK quickly went silent fearing for their lives .
|
|
|
Post by leeb on Oct 2, 2021 10:39:29 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one. Now that my friends really "is" Nuts. So this account of events which is general concensus by everyone who was there and also confirmed by every researcher and historian is "Nuts " when it concerns BTK but the exact same story is acceptable when BTK is replaced by Billy Barlow.
|
|
|
Post by kerry on Oct 2, 2021 22:11:47 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one. Now that my friends really "is" Nuts. So this account of events which is general concensus by everyone who was there and also confirmed by every researcher and historian is "Nuts " when it concerns BTK but the exact same story is acceptable when BTK is replaced by Billy Barlow. [br Over time - academic historians form a mutual admiration society..they become romantically absorbed by their subject.. just like laymen like me. What is diturbing is when a scientist such as Gale Cooper descends to this level and legally obstructs the work of Sederwall- reminescent of the Santa Fe Ring..Steve is going after raw evidence that is there for the taking and should be supported by Gale - not obstructed . The custodians of the Lincoln County Court house now know the bullet hole at the bottom of the stairs is a disgracwful hoax - Garrett's account of a rebounding bullet appears to true...the pistol in the out- house is discredited - yet not a word from the academics who signed off long ago. .
|
|
|
Post by MissyS on Oct 5, 2021 19:06:48 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one. Now that my friends really "is" Nuts. I like this post, walking through the actions of the involved as Wayne did it truly sounds Nuts. Researching the Maxwell’s family, it states that Pete Maxwell married Sarah C. Lutes (or Lutz). Pete and Sarah had 3 children: William Maxwell (b. 1876) Dilia Maxwell (b.1879) Lucien Maxwell (b.1880) These children one aged 5 years, one aged 2 years, and a 1 year old when the shooting occurred. I wonder if they were all in the house at the time of the shooting?, it’s nuts to think they could have been roaming around in the house possibly could have been caught in a crossfire in a dark room if they were in Pete’s house at the time?
|
|
|
Post by kerry on Oct 5, 2021 19:44:41 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one. Now that my friends really "is" Nuts. I like this post, walking through the actions of the involved as Wayne did it truly sounds Nuts. Researching the Maxwell’s family, it states that Pete Maxwell married Sarah C. Lutes (or Lutz). Pete and Sarah had 3 children: William Maxwell (b. 1876) Dilia Maxwell (b.1879) Lucien Maxwell (b.1880) These children one aged 5 years, one aged 2 years, and a 1 year old when the shooting occurred. I wonder if they were all in the house at the time of the shooting?, it’s nuts to think they could have been roaming around in the house possibly could have been caught in a crossfire in a dark room if they were in Pete’s house at the time? The Fort Sumner museum has the curtain that was said to have been over the door of Pete Maxwell's bedroom(there can't have been a door)...true or not - possible crime scene evidence for Steve Sederwall's luminol:so too the fair hair said to be Billy's from his barber -true or not- still DNA evidence when to date we only have (presumably) John Miller's ...
|
|
|
Post by tboor74 on Oct 6, 2021 2:31:03 GMT -5
I think the hair is too old for DNA? I'm no expert, just recall reading that somewhere....although, scientists can get DNA from ancient woolly mammoth coats etc so who knows? I imagine cost is prohibitive.
How many different layouts of the Maxwell house have been put forward too? The general concensus is the bedroom door opening off the porch but there's other testimonies / diagrams showing the porch opened into a central hallway, THEN another door into the bedroom?
|
|
|
Post by leeb on Oct 7, 2021 12:31:50 GMT -5
So Billy The Kid walks across to Maxwell's home in his sock feet (knowing there were snakes and scorpions around), fastening his pants along the way with a gun in one hand and a knife in the other, (he must have had 3 hands). Walks up on two caucasian deputies and speaks to them in Spanish (not his native language and obviously not there's either). Though he is carrying a gun and a knife they do not order him to stop but allow him to waltz into the room where Garrett is sitting (not really prepared to defend himself). You see, even though both deputies obviously had a description of Billy, they were both too dumb to figure out who this person was or that he might be a threat to their boss. He asks Maxwell who the men are outside (not sure if that was English or Spanish) and Garrett recognizes the voice of Billy The Kid. As Maxwell declares "that's him", Garrett is able to pull his revolver and fire off two shots before Billy, who already had a gun in his hand, was able to get off even one. Now that my friends really "is" Nuts. what witness states that BTK had a gun in one hand, knife in the other and doing up his strides (3 hands). Like to know?
|
|