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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 16, 2021 22:13:24 GMT -5
I’m excited and honored that you responded to my “Rough RIders, Edwards” comment. I never listened to the podcasts you mentioned and would love to hear them. I have however read his book way too many times;) 6 times obsessively now I think;) —In his book Daniel A Edward’s never made a claim as you mentioned. What he did was list a section from another book called “The Story of the Rough Riders” by Edward Marshall as “possible” evidence. This is what it said minus a few other paragraphs and is a FIRST HAND ACCOUNT by someone who was present watching the presenting of the “Bronco Buster” to Roosevelt. “From the ranks of (M Troop) stepped (William S. Murphy), who, although he was a private in the regiment, had been a judge in the Indian Territory at the time of his enlistment, and was known as one the most eloquent men in that part of the West. He took off his campaign hat and presented the colonel with Frederick Remington’s famous “Bronco Buster.” Daniel A. Edwards was merely stating the possibility that William S. Murphy could have been a possible alias that Brushy had used. If you read from the middle of page 67 to 73 you will see the (line of thinking) Daniel found. Absolutely fascinating just thinking of the possibility. There is much more associated with this new line of thinking he found and absolutely warrants more than just an eyebrow being raised or two. NOW...if it wasn’t for the research that he found from a first hand account of someone who was present during the presentation of the “Bronco Buster” to Roosevelt then YES everything you said would have been correct. The point is this William S. Murphy character. Sure sounds like an alias that fits in with people that were in and around his life events. There is so much more that ties into this William S. Murphy and possible links to what Brushy Bill Roberts said. After all Brushy had a mini “Bronc Buster” pin among his possessions and a volunteer pin that only active duty soldiers were given for that particular campaign. Anyways...I implore you to re-read this section out of his book. Like I said, I never listened to the podcasts of him but clearly the “possible” evidence he found was stated very clearly in his book and was NOT a claim of fact. We should all remember to not get stuck in any rigid line of thinking. We should allow for the possibility of thinking and research that Daniel A. Edwards found. If we don’t then we are as rigid as the other side of thinkers that say, ”Pat Garret killed Billy the Kid”. Again...I am honored with your initial response and look forward to future chats. I say all of this with deep respect. You realize, of course, that William S Murphy died in 1928 (Find a Grave Memorial #107537122, https://www.findagrave.com. /memorial/107537122/william-s.-murphy) William S Murphy is found in the General Index to Pension Files, 1861-1934 (https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=4654&h=5161535&tid=&pid=&queryId=938f7d39fd6bb88f41188c70d9ae06b4&usePUB=true&_phsrc=xGN61644&_phstart=successSource) He served in the US Volunteer Cavalry. His spouse was Emma Murphy. She and William S Murphy are buried in Bennington Cemetery, Bennington, Bryan County, Oklahoma, USA. William and Emma were living in Bryan County, Oklahoma, in the 1920 census. His occupation was listed as lawyer. (https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/79713230:6061?tid=&pid=&queryId=f0d414c920c53483bfc2f1001a4d9a92&_phsrc=xGN61646&_phstart=successSource) or (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJ94-HGK)
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Post by Carson Hunter on Feb 17, 2021 0:32:16 GMT -5
Well...my friend. You got me stumped here. I researched some of the links you sent. I’m bowing out for now;)
Let me leave by asking you this. I’m curious what you have to say.—Brushy Bill told Morrison that he served in the Cuban campaign and was in charge of breaking the horses with his friend Indian Jim. He had artifacts belonging to him that backed what he said. Do you believe that??
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 17, 2021 15:46:32 GMT -5
Well...my friend. You got me stumped here. I researched some of the links you sent. I’m bowing out for now;) Let me leave by asking you this. I’m curious what you have to say.—Brushy Bill told Morrison that he served in the Cuban campaign and was in charge of breaking the horses with his friend Indian Jim. He had artifacts belonging to him that backed what he said. Do you believe that?? There is no doubt that Brushy had a collection of artifacts, including a medal, to support his story that he was Billy the Kid. That seems to be inconsistent with his statement on page 31, "Alias Billy the Kid", 1955 edition "All these years I have been running and hiding when I knew I wasn't wrong. But I had to hide." Congress authorized numerous medals for service during the Spanish-American War. Only two were for service in the U S Army. The Army version of the Spanish Campaign Medal was established on 12 January 1905. It was awarded for military service performed between 11 May and 16 August 1898 which such service in the geographical regions of either Cuba, Puerto Rico, or the Philippine Islands, For those men of the Army who had served on active duty during the Spanish–American War, but had not been deployed in action, a separate medal was established in 1918, known as the Spanish War Service Medal. The photo of the coin from Brushy's collection, depicted between pages 52 and 53 of "Billy the Kid, Beyond the Grave" does not resemble the medal for service in Cuba. Page 112 has several photographs. The inset is a photo of a young Brushy Bill, taken in Fort Smith, Sebastian County, Arkansas. Oliver P Roberts was born in Sebastian County.
The man with the cigar in his mouth is identified as Marion F Turner on page 157 of "The West of Billy the Kid".
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Post by clydec on Feb 18, 2021 10:35:57 GMT -5
The man with the cigar in his mouth in that photo has been consistently identified as Billy Bonney by the family of Ma'am Jones and considering that two of her sons are in the photo as well I think they are correct. Also, no one has adequately explained to me how Brushy knew all the details about that photo when he met with the surviving Jones brothers on his trip back to Lincoln with Morrison.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 18, 2021 12:16:42 GMT -5
View AttachmentThe man with the cigar in his mouth in that photo has been consistently identified as Billy Bonney by the family of Ma'am Jones and considering that two of her sons are in the photo as well I think they are correct. Also, no one has adequately explained to me how Brushy knew all the details about that photo when he met with the surviving Jones brothers on his trip back to Lincoln with Morrison. That's the story told by the guy who wants to prove he was Billy the Kid.
There is a photo on page 157, "The West of Billy the Kid" of 4 men, including the one with the cigar in his mouth. The men in the photo were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photo was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right: Jim Jones and Marion F. Turner; seated, left to right, Bob Speakes and John Jones. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell.
So do we believe the guy trying to prove he is Billy the Kid, or the historian who has documented his sources in the 300 page book?
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Post by RonBk on Feb 18, 2021 14:22:51 GMT -5
View AttachmentThe man with the cigar in his mouth in that photo has been consistently identified as Billy Bonney by the family of Ma'am Jones and considering that two of her sons are in the photo as well I think they are correct. Also, no one has adequately explained to me how Brushy knew all the details about that photo when he met with the surviving Jones brothers on his trip back to Lincoln with Morrison. That's the story told by the guy who wants to prove he was Billy the Kid.
There is a photo on page 157, "The West of Billy the Kid" of 4 men, including the one with the cigar in his mouth. The men in the photo were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photo was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right: Jim Jones and Marion F. Turner; seated, left to right, Bob Speakes and John Jones. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell.
So do we believe the guy trying to prove he is Billy the Kid, or the historian who has documented his sources in the 300 page book?
Youre asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking yourself is this. Do you beleive that some historian who has written a couple of books would better identify persons in a photo than the persons who actually are themselves in this photo and there mom could?
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Post by clydec on Feb 19, 2021 20:23:59 GMT -5
View AttachmentThe man with the cigar in his mouth in that photo has been consistently identified as Billy Bonney by the family of Ma'am Jones and considering that two of her sons are in the photo as well I think they are correct. Also, no one has adequately explained to me how Brushy knew all the details about that photo when he met with the surviving Jones brothers on his trip back to Lincoln with Morrison. That's the story told by the guy who wants to prove he was Billy the Kid.
There is a photo on page 157, "The West of Billy the Kid" of 4 men, including the one with the cigar in his mouth. The men in the photo were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photo was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right: Jim Jones and Marion F. Turner; seated, left to right, Bob Speakes and John Jones. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell.
So do we believe the guy trying to prove he is Billy the Kid, or the historian who has documented his sources in the 300 page book?
Maybe so, but I was told by Steve Sederwall that he has spoken directly with members of the Jones family who still live on the Jones family farm in New Mexico and that photo is still sitting on a fireplace mantle in the house and they have claimed it was Billy Bonney from back in the time of Ma'am Jones herself. So, it did come from the family. Another thing as well is that Marion Turner at the time that photo was taken would have been in his 40's and just from looking at that photo that man with the cigar in his mouth is no way in his 40's.
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Post by Elwood on Feb 19, 2021 21:25:41 GMT -5
That's the story told by the guy who wants to prove he was Billy the Kid.
There is a photo on page 157, "The West of Billy the Kid" of 4 men, including the one with the cigar in his mouth. The men in the photo were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photo was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right: Jim Jones and Marion F. Turner; seated, left to right, Bob Speakes and John Jones. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell.
So do we believe the guy trying to prove he is Billy the Kid, or the historian who has documented his sources in the 300 page book?
Youre asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking yourself is this. Do you beleive that some historian who has written a couple of books would better identify persons in a photo than the persons who actually are themselves in this photo and there mom could? In reference to Frederick Nolan; are we compelled to believe everything that he has stated about Billy the Kid? Have you read this article?
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Post by RonBk on Feb 20, 2021 0:18:09 GMT -5
Youre asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking yourself is this. Do you beleive that some historian who has written a couple of books would better identify persons in a photo than the persons who actually are themselves in this photo and there mom could? In reference to Frederick Nolan; are we compelled to believe everything that he has stated about Billy the Kid? Have you read this article? I have read it just now. Very interesting theories, thanks for sharing. I dont think that anyone should be regarded as some fact-god or "truth-teller" so to speak. That everyone should always and without question regard what comes out of a proclaimed experts mouth to be the truth. Thats not the scientific way. But anyhow I do find the article very interesting. What comes to my mind after having read it is this. A lot of the things that for a very long time have been presented and accepted as historical facts regarding BTKs family relations are actually very much uncertain.
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Post by chivato88 on Feb 20, 2021 14:28:35 GMT -5
View AttachmentThe man with the cigar in his mouth in that photo has been consistently identified as Billy Bonney by the family of Ma'am Jones and considering that two of her sons are in the photo as well I think they are correct. Also, no one has adequately explained to me how Brushy knew all the details about that photo when he met with the surviving Jones brothers on his trip back to Lincoln with Morrison. That's the story told by the guy who wants to prove he was Billy the Kid.
There is a photo on page 157, "The West of Billy the Kid" of 4 men, including the one with the cigar in his mouth. The men in the photo were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photo was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right: Jim Jones and Marion F. Turner; seated, left to right, Bob Speakes and John Jones. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell.
So do we believe the guy trying to prove he is Billy the Kid, or the historian who has documented his sources in the 300 page book?
Do you think that Fred Nolan is right about everything? I agree yes he is great but not right about every damn thing. I lean towards to what the family says, I think they know better than Fred Nolan
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Feb 21, 2021 19:49:58 GMT -5
That's the story told by the guy who wants to prove he was Billy the Kid.
There is a photo on page 157, "The West of Billy the Kid" of 4 men, including the one with the cigar in his mouth. The men in the photo were identified by Eve Ball, to whom the photo was given by the Jones family, as rear, left to right: Jim Jones and Marion F. Turner; seated, left to right, Bob Speakes and John Jones. Others believe the man at front left is Buck Powell.
So do we believe the guy trying to prove he is Billy the Kid, or the historian who has documented his sources in the 300 page book?
Do you think that Fred Nolan is right about everything? I agree yes he is great but not right about every damn thing. I lean towards to what the family says, I think they know better than Fred Nolan No one is right about everything. There is no evidence that Brushy was right about anything.
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Post by chivato88 on Feb 21, 2021 20:35:46 GMT -5
There is no evidence that Brushy was right about anything. [/quote]
You're wrong and deep down inside I think you know it.The affidavit signed by Josephine Sanchez in 1990, I dont recall seeing you commenting on it, is it because that know you its solid evidence? The Sedillo girl incident is probably the thing that Brushy got the most right,its pretty solid stuff dont you think?
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Post by nmjames on Feb 21, 2021 23:11:12 GMT -5
The Sedillo girl incident is probably the thing that Brushy got the most right, its pretty solid stuff don't you think?
Sorry, I don't agree. Anyone that read the Life magazine from August 4, 1941 could have known about the Sedillo girl. Anyone that might have been in the Lincoln area may have heard about it and I feel Brushy was. I am still not certain that Brushy could speak Spanish and was told by one of Josephine's kin that Brushy couldn't speak Spanish. I have also found where he might have known a few Spanish words, but couldn't carry on a conversation. Then why wouldn't Josephine have reported it in 1950, after all if she really thought Brushy was the real Billy the Kid, why wouldn't she turn him in because he was convicted of killing Sheriff Brady who was her great granddad on her grandmothers side?
nmjames
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Post by Wayne Land on Feb 22, 2021 2:56:44 GMT -5
When do you think Brushy was "in the Lincoln area" and how could that be the case if he was the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts as many insist?
Also, how do you explain this excerpt from Josephine Sanchez' sworn affidavit?
"This affiant had heard further that Brushy Bill could not speak a word of Spanish so while waiting for the return of Severo she talked to him in Spanish, that he answered her in perfect Spanish, and could speak it fluently, that after the above named incidents, I, Josephine Randolph Sanches, knew very well that Brushy Bill Roberts was indeed Billie the Kid"
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Post by nmjames on Feb 22, 2021 10:42:21 GMT -5
Oliver P. Roberts had a niece that lived in Carlsbad, NM. Her husband retired from the mines in 1949 and they lived there until 1972. I have read that Brushy came to visit them a few times and went to Lincoln. Could this have been where Brushy learned about the little town of Phoenix? (page 21, Morrison's book) I know that Mollie had family in Hagerman but don't know if Brushy ever went to visit them.
As for Josephine Sanchez' affidavit, Morrison was trying to find people to state that Brushy was Billy the Kid. Brushy knew this, if he had talked to Josephine, why wouldn't he have told Morrison and why didn't Morrison meet her and get her to sign a affidavit in 1950. I also don't feel that Brushy was ever at the Gallegos home. nmjames
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