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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 9, 2011 13:01:38 GMT -5
Some say Brushy was illiterate. Some say not. Some say his writing resembled the scrawl of a small child. Here's an image from a letter written by Brushy. Difficult to read, yes. But so is the writing of some college graduates. I've seen much worse. Note he knew what year Belle Starr was killed. Attachments:
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 9, 2011 13:49:28 GMT -5
Here's the second page of the same letter and the envelope in which it was mailed to Ola Everhardt. Notice the signature. Why would he sign the letter William Bonney Billie Kid unless that's who he was? He had no reason to try and deceive Ola. If he was part of a scam put together with her help, why wouldn't he just sign it Ollie, or Brushy? Attachments:
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Post by mwb on Mar 9, 2011 16:09:07 GMT -5
Aren't there some letters written by Billy to Lew Wallace, etc. Does the handwriting compare? Not that it would, necessarily, since my handwriting has gotten much worse as I've gotten older, but wondered if there are any similarities?
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Post by Wayne Land on Mar 9, 2011 18:38:21 GMT -5
There is much disagreement as to whether those letters from Billy to Lew Wallace were actually written by him. Some of them look very different from each other and are believed to have been dictated. Some have said the letters are not original but were copied by Lew Wallace's son and the originals have been lost. Who knows for sure? On my website I show (under "Documents") an image of a cigarette paper signed by William Bonney that I believe contains handwriting more similar to Brushy's. Here's that image. Attachments:
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Post by searcher64 on Jun 28, 2013 20:00:18 GMT -5
there used to be a posting which had o.p. Roberts' signature from the divorce compared to the very different signature of Ollie Roberts on his wwI draft card. I can't seem to find them. were they removed or am I just floundering?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jun 28, 2013 23:19:30 GMT -5
I think this is the image you're referring to. I had it on my old website and will be adding it to the new one at some point. The bottom signature is O.P. Roberts signature on his divorce filling from Anna Lee and the other two are Brushy.
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Post by nmjames on Jul 11, 2013 7:14:08 GMT -5
Wayne
As to the three signatures that you have posted, I have found in two or three different places where Malinda wrote most of Brushy's letters. The top signature is said to have been from a letter that Malinda wrote to Ola Everhard. The middle signature if on Brushy's draft and the bottom one is on the divorce filling as you state. However I have questions on the divorce form. The signature you show is the same writing as the form. I feel someone filled the form out. If you will look below the OP signature, you can just make out O ? Roberts and just below that is H. O. Roberts. I question why the form down to the O.P. Roberts can be read but what I feel is Brusy's real signature and H.O. Roberts is very hard to make out.
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 11, 2013 11:42:25 GMT -5
I don't believe the first one is by Melinda Roberts. Unless somebody told some really big lies, including Melinda, she didn't know about Brushy's claim of being Billy The Kid at the time the letter was written. Yet it is first signed "Wilam Bonney Billy Kid" then under that is the signature I posted. Has to be written by Brushy himself. Besides the fact that there is no real evidence that Melinda wrote all Brushy's letters for him. That, I believe, is strictly hearsay based on the mistaken quote of C.L,. Sonnichsen that Brushy was "illiterate". In fact, Sonnichsen did not say that. He said Brushy was not a "literate man". He meant "not well read" and the comment was made to dispel the theory that Brushy learned what he knew about Billy by reading books.
I disagree that the second signature looks like all the other writing on the form. It is not from the draft form. It is from the death certificate of Luticia Roberts. It does look similar to the writing below it but it is labeled "Signature" and it has a star next to it as if someone was marking for him, the spot where he was to sign. If that was not Brushy's "signature" then somebody forged it.
The bottom one is from the divorce suit against Anna Lee Roberts and is definitely unlike all the other writing on the form, including the very faint signatures below it. The two lines below are not labeled in any way. Maybe they were for witnesses, I don't know. But the signature "H.O. Roberts" is definitely not the same writing as "O.P. Roberts". I posted this as evidence that the O.P. Roberts who divorced Anna Lee Roberts was the "real" Oliver Pleasant Roberts and not Brushy.
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Post by nmjames on Jul 11, 2013 18:40:03 GMT -5
First let me say you are correct on the middle signature. It is from the death certificate of Luticia Roberts. I was thinking about the draft form because you once told me that you feel that it was Brushy Bill that signed it.
As to the 1st. statement, I did not say that Melinda wrote all of Brushy's letters. I have found where the letter that you used just the signature was to Ola May Everhard and I have found where a person that has a few copies of letters to Ola May Everhard states that Melinda wrote the letters. I have also found statements made before that Melinda wrote most of his letters. (On the copy of the letter that I have it is post marked Oct. 27, 1950.)
The statement that you make about the story that Milinda wrote all Brushy's letters for him did not come from C.L Sonnichsen and the "illiterate" statement. It comes from other material. I do have a letter from Morrison to Mrs. Everhard that does make a statement about Brushy however.
The bottom signature from the divorce suit against Anny Lee Roberts I stand by. I think someone filled in the form, wrote O.P. Roberts and Brushy signed his name below and H.O. (Brushy's real dad) signed as a witness. Can you tell me why the two bottom names are so hard to read and all the other material is not?
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Post by searcher64 on Jul 12, 2013 0:56:17 GMT -5
why would a divorce decree need your father's signature as witness? and with someone else filling out and signing as o.p.? also, if malinda wrote all brushy's letters, and signed for him, why would she have been around to sign for him way back at luticia's death? I see the same handwriting in the everhard letter and luticia's death certificate. looks pretty compatible with the hand that signed bonney's boyhood photos and the cigarette paper. closer than my signature is at age 50 next to one from my high school days, imo...
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Post by searcher64 on Jul 12, 2013 0:59:39 GMT -5
I erred up top in referring to the wwI draftcard. but if I remember correctly it had a similar-looking signature...
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 12, 2013 14:33:09 GMT -5
The writing on the draft card may be similar to the top two signatures I posted. I do believe it was Brushy that filed that draft registration. The important comparison I'm trying to make here is that the signature on the divorce decree from Anna Lee is completely different from "any" other writing attributed to Brushy or Billy. The letters slant differently and the shape of the letters is unlike anything else being considered.
This indicates to me that the person who signed that divorce paper was "not" Brushy. Whoever signed it, likely the real O.P. Roberts, if it was not Brushy then it supports the conclusion that the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts was married to Anna Lee and that Brushy was not, as is indicated by his interviews with Morrison. And that supports the idea that Brushy was not hanging out with the Roberts family until "after" that divorce by the real Oliver P. Roberts.
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Post by nmjames on Jul 12, 2013 20:12:32 GMT -5
Wayne,
In my most humble opinion, none of the three signatures match. I am no expert but on the top signature and letter, the person was bad about not closing the a and o. The R, l, b,t,and s do not look the same to me.
I agree that the signature on the divorce decree does not match but again I don't know who wrote the body of the form and signed O.P. Roberts. The O on the next line looks more like Brushy but the Roberts is very hard to make out. The. H.O. Roberts I feel was the real Henry O. Roberts. Can you post just the bottom part of the divorce decree? (Do you think we can get a copy of their Marriage License and that it might have their signatures'?)
I know you feel that there was a O.P. Roberts and that Brushy was not him. I do not. You can track Brushy from 1878 or 1879 to 1950. Who married Mollie in 1912 and are you telling me that in just two years (1910 to 1912) that the Roberts family didn't know who Brushy was? On the Van Zandt Co. records, O.P. Roberts married Anna Lee on 7-14-09, you are saying this was the real O.P Roberts? Then in Van Zandt Co. on 8-21-1912 Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown, that this was Brushy Bill? Then you are saying that they are not the same person and the family couldn't tell them apart?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 12, 2013 21:39:15 GMT -5
Certainly the family could tell them apart. It would be absurd to think otherwise. But according to Brushy, it was Oliver P's mother who thought he was her son. Maybe she was a bit "looney tunes". I think Oliver Pleasant Roberts ran off immediately after the divorce from Anna Lee, then Brushy showed up and simply began to call himself "Ollie" in order to appease the mother. After all, he needed a new alias and that name was available. Note, the one and only document on record after 1910 where he used the middle initial "P" or middle name "Pleasant" was the WWI draft registration card. All three of his marriages list him as just "Ollie" or "Oliver L". Remember, in fact, there were family members who insisted he was not Oliver including Martha Vada's husband. Why in the world would he insist Brushy was not Oliver unless he really was not? He obviously would know there was a difference?
Did Henry Oliver and some other family members go along with Brushy's use of the name "Ollie" in order to appease the mother's ravings or possibly to help Brushy hide from the law? Either scenario is possible. If Brushy "was" the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts then why didn't Thomas or Henry or Martha or somebody come forward in 1950 to set the record straight? Isn't it possible the family just looked the other way even though they knew the truth?
Also note that Brushy said his cousin "Oliver" got killed in the indian territory. I think this would have been in the 1890's. And that he eventually returned his belongings to his mother who mistook him for her long lost son. So I have the other theory that no one else seems to want to give much credence, that there were two cousin Oliver's. The one that ran off and got himself killed in Indian Territory probably named "Oliver L. Roberts", born around 1868 and the one born in 1879 named "Oliver Pleasant Roberts". No, I've found no record of an Oliver L. born in 1868 and no record of the location of residence after 1910 or the death of "Oliver Pleasant Roberts". And yes, that gives me pause. But I still think we'll find the answer to some of the questions eventually, because I still believe Brushy had too much in common with Billy The Kid physically and had too much knowledge of the details of Billy's life for it to have been coincidence.
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Post by nmjames on Jul 13, 2013 1:57:22 GMT -5
Why did Brushy need a new alias? He was not using William H. Bonney, Henry McCarty, Kid Antrim. No one would have know who Oliver, Oliver L. Oliver P or Ollie was. I have never found the name Roberts connected to the real Billy the Kid.
In the 1920 Census he is still listed as Olliver P. Roberts living in Van Zandt, Texas in the house of James C. Murff.
As for someone coming forward in 1950, the only one left was Thomas. He lived until 1957. Henry and Elizabeth both passed away in 1924 and Martha passed away in 1947. All the stories about M.D. Heath saying that Brushy wasn't Martha's brother is just stories. Can you show me where she said it. I can show you where she said Brushy was her brother. (He was her half brother. Martha's mother was a Dunn. Henry's first wife was a Dunn. Henry's second wife, Brushy's mother was Sarah Eliabeth Ferguson. In Morrison's book on page 16, Brushy states that he went back to Buffalo Gap to find Wild Henry Roberts and that he had married Elizabeth Ferguson. Kind of odd that Henry O. Roberts first wife was C. Dunn and then he married Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson. By the way. Henry O. was born in 1850 or 1852. Elizabeth was born in 1854. I don't thing Brushy was born in 1859. (Someone did come forward later and said Brushy was born in 1879)
I know you say Brushy's dad was James Henry Roberts and his mother was Mary A. Dunn but I have not been able to find them anywhere to mach up with the right dates and I have tried to find them. You can find them listed on Family Search but there are no records to back them up. If you have found them tell me where to find them. (Other than in the Bible said to have belong to Brushy.)
As to the Kid had too much knowledge of the details of Billy's life, I have made the statement before and will say it again, Brushy did not know that much about Billy or for that matter the Lincoln Co. War. Brushy states he was in Silver City in 1870 when the real Billy the Kid was in Kansas. Brushy left Silver City in 1872 to go back and look for his father. In fact, Billy didn't live in Silver City unitl 1873 and didn't leave until 1875.
Brushy stated that Karhrine Ann Bonney was his half Aunt and came to get him after his mother died in 1862. He states that she took him to Indian Teritory and then to Colorado when Joseph states he was born in New Your and on three different census his age puts him born in 1863. We know that Billy's mother lived in Indiana from about 1865 until about 1869. Also show me anywhere that Billy's real mother used the name Bonney. (Many people have researched trying to find out where the Bonney comes in.) Brushy also states that he lived with his half aunt and her mother. That would be quite a find because no one knows who her mother was.
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