Validity

[kidcanuck]

Hi, new member and I would like to start by saying that this is a very informative site that makes a very strong case that Brushy was indeed Billy the Kid.

A few questions. I was wondering if you could verify some information. It is said that friends of Billy who met separately with Brushy concluded and signed affidavits that Brushy and Billy were one in the same. These friends included Severo Gallegos, Jose Montoya, and Martile Able.


Two other of Billy's friends Bill and Sam Jones as well as Jessie Evans also said that they believed Brushy to being Billy the Kid though they did not sign affidavits. I have also read that Pat Garretts own daughter gave an interview claiming that her father admitted that he in fact did not shoot Billy the Kid.

I find this information interesting and was wondering if there was anymore details that are known of?

[Wayne Land]

Hi kidcanuck and welcome to the board. I hope you'll help us make it a useful and enduring source of positive information and exchange of ideas.

It was reported by more than one source that Bill and Sam Jones agreed Brushy was the real deal but did not sign affidavits in order not to get involved. It is also said there was a photo in their possession that had never been published and that while meeting with Brushy they brought it out and Brushy idenitfied everyone in the photo correctly including himself as Billy The Kid. Problem is, I've seen no real documentation or first hand information that these things actually happened.

[Wayne Land]

Martile Able and Severo Gallegos, and others did sign affidavits and contrary to some assertions, the originals are still out there in the hands of a descendant of Brushy's last wife. If what is reported to have happened actually happened, when Brushy was taken to the home of Martile Able, not only did she recognize him, he also recognized her and named her on sight. Unless he was coached in advance, his recognition of her is extremely convincing. Gallegos was there when Billy escaped from the courthouse in Lincoln and his testimony is particularly convincing to me because at first he had doubts but then asked Brushy to step in front of the window. Upon getting a clear view of Brushy's eyes, Gallegos was ready to swear to Brushy's identity as that of Billy The Kid.

On an attempt to take Brushy to visit Ygenio Salazar only to discover Salazar had passed away, Brushy was introduced to a neighbor and relative named Josephine Sanchez. She asked Brushy if he remembered who he and Salazar had dated together and Brushy correctly remembered how he and Salazar had dated two girls from San Patricio. (If I'm remembering the names correctly!) To me, if this actually happened, it is ironclad proof Brushy had to be Billy.

The problem again is lack of reliable documentation or sworn statements to some of these convincing revelations.

[kidcanuck]

Hi Wayne, i don't have as much knowledge as others on these boards after viewing a large content of what's available and has been posted. I do however since I was a teenager have an interest with the old west and especially Billy The Kid.

Besides the famous tintype photo that is all but confirmed to being Billy The Kid there are also alot of unconfirmed photos that are claimed to being the Kid. How do you feel those photos match up to the known ones of Brushy Bill Roberts? Someones features definantley can change quite a bit over the years, but there are also certain characteristics that remain the same.

With Brushy it would not suprise me one bit if Bill and Sam Jones did in fact bring out a photo for Brushy to identify. This is a very strong piece of information if it could ever be confirmed. Along with the signed affidavits there seems to be to much confirmation that Brushy was indeed Billy The Kid. Though I was curious if there were any of Billys former friends on record who denied that Brushy was Billy? I myself have not come across any such claims.

Over time it becomes harder to confirm information unless it is clearly documented. With Brushys case though I continue to ask myself why would a 90 year old man claim to being someone he's not, unless he was who he said he was.

[Wayne Land]

I've been studying this for nearly fifteen years on and off and to my knowledge there was never anyone who had known Billy The KId who met Brushy and said "no, that's not him". Not one. And that is very important. But consider another side of that same concept. If Brushy was not Billy, then he had to have been the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts who had many acquaintances and relatives who could have spoken up. Only one ever spoke to say he was not Billy The Kid and that was Geneva Pittmon, the niece of the real Oliver Pleasant Roberts. She was not in a position to know the truth however, because she wasn't even born when Brushy stepped into the identity of Oliver Roberts. So here is another large number of possible witnesses who could have denied his being Billy The KId and not one of them who was in a position to know the truth ever offered a denial of Brushy's claim.

As for other photos, the answer is none of them match Brushy's face as well as the one authenticated tintype. The closest match is a photo alleged to be Billy and his brother Joe discovered in Globe, AZ. but even that one doesn't match the tintype or Brushy as well as Brushy and the tintype match each other.

[kidcanuck]

Fifteen years is a long time lol. The movies, though I know are more fiction than accurate, Young Guns 1 and 2 hit a nerve with me when I was younger that continues till this day. It was then, at the end of the second movie that I realized Billy The Kid may not have been shot by Pat Garrett and that he lived to be an old man.

Jesse Evans, he was the leader of his own gang who at one time opposed Billy The Kid? If i'm correct I remember reading somewhere that Evans under an alias was the one who tipped off Morrison that the Kid was alive and living in Texas back in 1949? This is what lead Brushy to persue the pardon that he as Billy was promised to him by Gov' Lou Wallace was it not?

[Wayne Land]

Morrison identified a man going by the name of Joe Hines as the source. Morrison met him in connection with a claim he had on property of his deceased brother. Interestingly though, Brett Hall, in his book claimed Joe Hines was not Jesse Evans. He claimed Morrison used that name to add credibility to Brushy's being identified because Hines was promised "his" true identity would not be revealed. If I remember correctly (I no longer have the book), Hall claimed Hines' real name was Jimmy McDaniels, also a participant in the Lincoln County War. Others believe Morrison was directed by Hines (whoever he was) to contact J. Frank Dalton and it was Dalton who told him where to find Brushy.

It's probably impossible to know exactly what happened but it appears to me that Hines was the one who first told Morrison that Billy was still alive but he did not know an address. Hines then gave Morrison the name of another man who knew how to contact Billy. That man "may" have been Dalton. Morrison then wrote to Brushy asking to meet him and eventually traveled to Hamilton, TX where Brushy was living at the time.

You mentioned the Young Guns movies. It was actually those movies that got me interested as well. Unfortunately they are filled with a great many historically inaccuracies. But I believe they did a great service in showing how Billy and the Regulators got involved and why. And Estevez portrayed Billy very much the way I believe he was. Great movies.

[kidcanuck]

it was probaly estevez's best performance as an actor in both those movies.

this brings me to the question of what if morrison never contacted brushy? would brushy have gone forward with the request for his pardon as billy the kid?

also is it true that a comparison of the tintype and brushy yielded a 93% accuacy with methods used by the fbi and the other 7% being due to old age and loss of dentures? if that is the case and unless billy had a twin brother.....

[Wayne Land]

I agree about Estevez. I often wonder why he isn't still making movies though.

I believe without a doubt if Morrison had not contacted Brushy, Brushy would never have surfaced.

Various photo comparison efforts have been made, some showing a positive match, and some not. Bottom line is, whatever software or method is used to compare the photos, eventually somebody has to make judgement calls and the results vary. But yes, there was a comparison that showed over 90% matching features. I forget the exact data on that and where it was done, but I can look for it and try to provide more specifics.

[jason]

Hi everyone, new member here. First off I would like to say thanks Wayne for creating this site. I am now convinced that Brushy Bill was indeed Billy the Kid.With that being said.My question is, if not Billy,then who was John Miller? He also according to friends knew quite a bit about the Kid and the LCW. Is it maybe possible that he also was a regulator using the alias John Miller?

[Wayne Land]

That's certainly possible. There were hundreds of people involved in the Lincoln County War and John Miller never publicly claimed to be Billy. After his death, family and friends made the claim. Anyway, welcome to the board Jason. I hope you'll visit often and help keep the conversation and dialog going.

Just for fun, I've thrown out the rather outlandish idea that Miller might have been Billy's friend Billy Barlow and that even though Brushy thought he was killed that night in Fort Sumner, he actually survived as well. I don't believe that is the case. But it is fun to speculate.

What I am certain of is that Brushy was the true Billy The Kid, alias William H. Bonney. Thanks again for signing up.

[Thain Timmertberg]

John Miller was Billy Barlow. LMAO. that would make since, lol. thanks, i'm gonna think about it:)

[Wayne Land]

Glad you liked it. As I said, it's pretty far out there but it is "possible"!

[devinb]

This is the side-by-side comparison I created using Photoshop---the faces on both the iconic tintype of Billy and the dapper, moustached (young) Brushy match.

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[devinb]

Here's the reversed comparison in Photoshop--leaves little doubt in my mind that Brushy and the Kid were the same guy.

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