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Post by sushiadam on Jul 12, 2017 4:40:09 GMT -5
Tried comparing these two now that the Croquet Photo has been verified, it's closer than I expected!
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Post by MissyS on Jul 12, 2017 5:23:38 GMT -5
Sushiadam, What is the history of the photo?, it looks like there's a shine like a gamblers ring on his pinky too, they do look similar
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Post by sushiadam on Jul 12, 2017 5:32:34 GMT -5
I thought it was interesting. It's cropped from a photo of the Rough Riders, the one that Daniel Edwards suggested could be Brushy/Kid. Thanks to this group I looked up a roster for Company D of the 10th Cavalry and there was the name W.H.Roberts... So maybe he didn't use an alias after all!
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Post by 44colt on Sept 29, 2017 7:39:32 GMT -5
I thought it was interesting. It's cropped from a photo of the Rough Riders, the one that Daniel Edwards suggested could be Brushy/Kid. Thanks to this group I looked up a roster for Company D of the 10th Cavalry and there was the name W.H.Roberts... So maybe he didn't use an alias after all! In the archive this person is listed as Cherokee. I believe this is the person Brushy called "Indian Jim". Brushy is the man to his right in the photo. Save
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Post by sushiadam on Oct 1, 2017 15:39:50 GMT -5
Is it possible the archives got the names switched around? The likeness is pretty intriguing while the other guy doesn't really look like Brushy/Kid in my humble opinion...
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 2, 2017 21:55:10 GMT -5
"In the archive this person is listed as half Cherokee. I believe this is the person Brushy called "Indian Jim". Brushy is the man to his right in the photo"
Is this a proven fact, your opinion, or just a WAG?
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Post by 44colt on Oct 3, 2017 15:43:06 GMT -5
"In the archive this person is listed as half Cherokee. I believe this is the person Brushy called "Indian Jim". Brushy is the man to his right in the photo" Is this a proven fact, your opinion, or just a WAG? It is a proven fact that the archive lists one of these men as Cherokee. The names are definitely wrong as they call two different men William D. Wood. This is in my book. Note: I have edited my post as the archive states "Cherokee", not "Half-Cherokee".
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 3, 2017 16:42:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the prompt response.
I do not question that one of the men in the Rough Riders is a Cherokee.
"Brushy is the man to his right in the photo"
Please answer my question. You have stated without qualification that Brushy Bill is the man to his right. Is it this a proven fact, simply your opinion, or a WAG?
We've disagreed before about the possibility that William S Murphy was an alias of Billy the Kid based on photos in a book.
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Post by 44colt on Oct 3, 2017 17:08:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the prompt response. I do not question that one of the men in the Rough Riders is a Cherokee. "Brushy is the man to his right in the photo" Please answer my question. You have stated without qualification that Brushy Bill is the man to his right. Is it this a proven fact, simply your opinion, or a WAG? We've disagreed before about the possibility that William S Murphy was an alias of Billy the Kid based on photos in a book. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. I deal with the reasons why I identify the man in question as Brushy Bill Roberts in my book, including: - He is a bronco buster
- He is the only man in both photos, perhaps indicating he leads the effort and is posing with his men
- He is the same height as Billy the Kid (according to comparison when the photos are scaled to the same dimensions)
- He is a US Volunteer as Brushy claimed
- He has the same asymmetrical eyebrows of the Kid
- He has the same posture as Billy the Kid
- He has the same facial features as Brushy Bill Roberts (and Billy the Kid), including his prominent ears
- He has the same hands as Brushy Bill Roberts
- He is wearing a gambler's ring on his left hand pinky finger
That said, don't worry about it. Pat Garrett supposedly said he killed the Kid and his deputies, who told different stories about how it happened and who had never actually met the Kid, supported what he said...or so we are told. Also, even though the governor rejected his reward money, a special act of the legislature-initiated by members of the Catron gang, ensured that he got the $500 reward money for killing the Kid in "August" 1881. I know that settles the matter for many so why consider any evidence?
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 3, 2017 21:44:44 GMT -5
Daniel, thanks for the prompt response.
I understand your desire to find any evidence that would support Brushy Bill’s claim that he was in Cuba with the Rough Riders. Your theory that William S. Murphy was Brushy Bill crashed with the discovery that William S. Murphy died in Oklahoma in 1928, and had applied for a pension for his service with the Rough Riders.
You have listed several reasons that led you to believe the man in the photo is Brushy Bill.
· He is a bronco buster------------ Perhaps, but that is not a unique skill · He is the only man in both photos, perhaps indicating he leads the effort and is posing with his men-------------------Key word, PERHAPS. Certainly not conclusive. · He is the same height as Billy the Kid (according to comparison when the photos are scaled to the same dimensions)-----------An educated guess, not a fact. · He is a US Volunteer as Brushy claimed.---------All Rough Riders were volunteers. · He has the same asymmetrical eyebrows of the Kid-------An educated guess, not a fact · He has the same posture as Billy the Kid-------A guess, not a fact · He has the same facial features as Brushy Bill Roberts (and Billy the Kid), including his prominent ears-------An educated guess, not a fact · He has the same hands as Brushy Bill Roberts-------An educated guess, not a fact · He is wearing a gambler's ring on his left hand pinky finger----------An assumption that a gambler’s ring is either unique or scarce
With all due respect, the 9 similarities listed are not sufficient evidence to conclude that the unidentified subject is Brushy Bill.
“That said, don't worry about it.”
Worry? Not me. History is based on the most accurate facts available.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.
These are the facts: 1. The name of neither Brushy Bill Roberts nor William Henry Roberts has ever been found in any official record. (So it’s time for the alias theory.) 2. The name and birth date provided by Brushy Bill Roberts when he registered for the WWI Draft in Little River County, Arkansas, was Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1879, the same name and date as cited by Geneva Roberts Pittmon, the niece of Oliver P Roberts. (Now it’s time for the story that Oliver P. Roberts, son of Henry Oliver Roberts and Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson, disappeared from Van Zandt County, Texas, without a trace about 1910.) 3. The Coroners Jury Report is an official record of the 1881 death of William Bonney.
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Post by 44colt on Oct 3, 2017 22:44:57 GMT -5
Here is what I believe you are missing.
William V. Morrison did his job in regards to gathering the legal requirements to obtain Brushy Bill's pardon PERFECTLY. He followed the legal process and the law. He gathered evidence within the law sufficient to effect the pardon of Brushy Bill Roberts. He had certified copies of extant records, such as the Kids conviction, notarized affidavits, etc.
Note that SWORN, NOTARIZED AFFIDAVITS constitute competent summary judgement evidence in a court of law and are sufficient for establishing identity. The affiant is subject to perjury charges and could face jail time for falsifying a sworn affidavit. Morrison was correct to be confident in his case and ALL EVIDENCE indicates that he was genuinely interested in obtaining a legitimate pardon for William Henry Roberts. His book ALIAS BILLY THE KID did not come out until FIVE YEARS after Brushy died and after he had spent significant amounts of his own money helping Brushy Bill because he felt it was the right thing to do.
Also, He was THE FIRST to conduct a handwriting analysis on the Kid's letters to Lew Wallace with the leading forensics firm in St. Louis and THE FIRST to discover that they were not written by the same person.
He was THE FIRST to discover that there was NO LEGAL PROOF THAT BILLY THE KID WAS DEAD.
His file was fully complete to the point that none other than Harry S. Truman called it "the most satisfactory arrangement with supporting evidence that I have seen".
Mabry, a member of Walter Noble Burns' family, did not even look at the file. In other words, he didn't rely on EVIDENCE in his judgement against Brushy, but supposedly he relied on COMMON SENSE, because supposedly everyone knew that Garrett killed the Kid. What he actually did is he orchestrated a media circus against his word and caused Mr. Roberts to suffer a stroke on the spot and it cost him his life about a month later. Many could say that he is guilty of the death of Roberts and they probably would not be wrong.
My point is that it is hypocritical for Brushy critics to accept without question "common sense" with the Mabry hearing and then demand hard proof when "common sense" goes against them. The vast majority of people that consider all of the things in Brushy's favor use their common sense to determine that he was Billy the Kid. The vast majority of the people that are not biased that hear Brushy's detailed and specific story about being a bronco buster in the rough riders and then look at WHAT APPEARS TO BE A PHOTO OF HIM AS A BRONCO BUSTER IN THE ROUGH RIDERS, RIGHT DOWN TO THE PINKY RING HE WORE use common sense to say "Yep, that sure looks like him!"
What's more, the HARD EVIDENCE on Brushy's side BY FAR OUTWEIGHS THE EVIDENCE ON GARRETT'S SIDE but yet critics still act as though they have the higher moral or academic grounds which is laughable. I will repeat that taking a position that the Santa Fe Ring bought and paid for is not the high ground. They pulled the same stunt with Frank Angel that they pulled on Billy the Kid in using the media to brand him something he was not. This is old news. They were corrupt. Garrett was appointed by them. He didn't kill the Kid. Its over. They went too far and they picked the wrong guy. They were not successful with the Kid. Not only were many of their stooges killed, but their corruption was exposed. "The House" had to sell their failed store to the County which is how the Lincoln County Courthouse became the jail for Billy.
Every attack against Mr. Morrison and Brushy Bill has been fully answered. Morrison was not a hack, he was a consummate professional IN A LEAGUE FAR ABOVE those who criticized him in everything from his THOROUGHNESS, HIS JUDGEMENT, AND HIS PROFESSIONALISM. When he added C.L. Sonnichsen, A HARVARD EDUCATED AND WELL-RESPECTED ACADEMIC, it still wasn't good enough. The President of the United States supported Morrison's conclusion and that isn't good enough.
Let's consider some of the ridiculous attempts to impune them since Brushy obviously knew intimate details of the LCW and BTK from memory:
1. Morrison coached him or they got their info from the Saga of Billy the Kid. - REALITY-There is no evidence of this at all and there is no reference of this in their correspondence. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF A FRAUD OR A HOAX IN REGARDS TO WILLIAM V. MORRISON. The man's character and methods were impeccable.
2. After looking at the evidence, the Governor dismissed the claim. - REALITY-Mabry never looked at the evidence. You probably don't know that he told Morrison he would make it a matter of public record, but then buried the file. Morrison got the run around and finally had to appeal directly to the Governor to get it back. I'm still not sure if the governor ever returned it....but this is the reason you can't go to the State of New Mexico and get a copy. Mabry, who had a vested interest in protecting the legacy of his family member Walter Noble Burns, lied...again.
3. Brushy was seeking publicity- REALITY- Brushy avoided publicity and would give no interviews. His full efforts were on obtaining a pardon.
4. Brushy claimed to be a part of the James gang and when that didn't work he claimed to be Billy the Kid. REALITY- Brushy never claimed to be a part of the James gang. He refused to own up to being Billy the Kid even though he was continually approached.
5. Brushy was too young. REALITY- The Kid always looked younger than he was. Brushy himself used this excuse and confessed to Morrison that was one of the ways he threw people off his trail.
We can continue to cover old ground, but let's not confuse "common sense" with "hard evidence" and let's either concede both or pick one, shall we? There is ABSOLUTELY no hard evidence that Garrett killed the Kid. No sworn statements by Poe or McKinney, No body, No legal death certificate or Coroner's Jury. The Special Act of the Legislature says Garrett killed the Kid in August, 1881. (Not July like was reported in the newspapers).
Let's be honest. To a hammer, everything is a nail. I'm ok with those who want facts instead of common sense, but you can't have it both ways. Tenacity and integrity is to be commended, but the critics do not commend it in Mr. Morrison, who had more hard facts and higher ethics than them all.
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Post by 44colt on Oct 3, 2017 22:51:54 GMT -5
3. The Coroners Jury Report is an official record of the 1881 death of William Bonney. The Coroner's Jury Report was not legally filed and is worthless as a legal document. IT IS NOT AN OFFICIAL RECORD BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PROPERLY FILED. Morrison established this in 1950. There is NO LEGAL PROOF Garrett killed Billy and nothing ANYONE can say will change that. I know critics want so bad to use the (third) Coroner's Jury that Garrett had made and personally dictated to his surrogates, but they can't. Its not legally binding. Let's use a consistent standard. You have no legal evidence. That coroner's jury isn't worth the paper and ink its made of in a court of law. Its just a nice historical document that never made it into the official record. Likewise, the Justice of the Peace didn't record it in his log book. Now, isn't that odd?
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Post by 44colt on Oct 3, 2017 22:58:40 GMT -5
Your theory that William S. Murphy was Brushy Bill crashed with the discovery that William S. Murphy died in Oklahoma in 1928, and had applied for a pension for his service with the Rough Riders. I beg to differ.
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Post by 44colt on Oct 3, 2017 23:16:22 GMT -5
Tried comparing these two now that the Croquet Photo has been verified, it's closer than I expected! SaveJust want to call your attention to the fact that Brushy would have been 39 years old in the Rough Riders vs. 17 as Billy the Kid. Brushy was wearing a mustache as early as age 27 and it is present in every photo since then. The man identified as the Cherokee Indian is not wearing a mustache. Also, what you posted has been reversed. In the original, that man is facing to his right, not his left. Save
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Oct 5, 2017 10:12:04 GMT -5
Your theory that William S. Murphy was Brushy Bill crashed with the discovery that William S. Murphy died in Oklahoma in 1928, and had applied for a pension for his service with the Rough Riders."
Response: "I beg to differ. "
Question: Do you believe William S. Murphy was Brushy Bill?
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