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Post by james40 on Dec 8, 2016 10:32:52 GMT -5
This is a great site for those believers in Brushy Bill, and non believers. I've read lots of information on both sides but what I really haven't seen is who Joe Hines really was, or what kind of correspondence he had with Brushy Bill Roberts? It's not like they hatched this elaborate scheme on an Internet message board or chat room. If I was a naysayer, the first thing I would do is try to discredit Joe Hines, but I haven't seen that done anywhere.
Numerous books have been written and I take a museum built all because of Joe Hines meeting with the Morrison fellow on claiming land from his deceased brother, it seems a lot of effort has been put forth, with lots of money being spent, because of Joe Hines (if I'm wrong about this correct me, I'm a newb in all of this).
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Post by nmjames on Dec 8, 2016 14:29:49 GMT -5
Hello james40,
Welcome to the site. I have done some research on Joe Hines and have some information. I have been going to ask some of the Brushy people about Joe Hines but have been somewhat busy. I know some say he was William Campbell and others say he was Jesse Evans. I have seen it said his real name was Jesse R. James and his brother was Franklin Morgan James and Franklin changed his name to Morgan Campbell. I think Morrison states Joe Hines was born about 1856. The Jesse R. James and Franklin James that I have found on the 1850 census were Jesse 4 years old and Frank 6. You can find Joe Hines on the 1940 census living in Escambia, Florida age 80.
Other things I have found is Emerson Hough states that the real name of William Campbell in the LCW was Ed Richardson. I also have found it said the William Campbell of the LCW was killed in Arizona in Dec. 1881 and he was the one that rode with Jesse Evans. William Campbell and Joseph Waters were taken by citizens from a jail and hung in Dec. 1881 for the murders of David Blanchard and J. Barrett at Saint Johns, Arizona.
I was joing to try to find the court documents but started finding who Brushy Bill Roberts was and didn't go any further.
nmjames
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 8, 2016 15:53:45 GMT -5
nmjames,
Information about Joe Hines, William Campbell, and Jesse Evans is elusive.
"The Jesse R. James and Franklin James that I have found on the 1850 census were Jesse 4 years old and Frank 6."
The 1850 census of Clay County, MO, lists Franklin James, age 10, and Jesse R., age 4, in the household of Robert and Serelda James. Robert was a Baptist preacher, and Zerelda Cole was his wife. Jesse Woodson James was incorrectly identified in this census as Jesse R. James. Jesse W. James was killed 3 April 1882 in St. Jo, Missouri, by Bob Cole. Another great impostor, J. Frank Dalton and friend of Brushy Bill, proclaimed to the world in a 19 May 1948 affidavit that he was Jesse Woodson James.
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Post by james40 on Dec 8, 2016 16:01:08 GMT -5
Jesse Evans possibly? Although all the aliases used during the LCW, who knows,? Evans I believe did get away and was never heard from again, but so did Dan Bogan( not related to the story just another whose death isn't recorded).
One person who I haven't seen written about after the LCW is Doc Scurlock, who if you put a picture next to Brushy Bill's face is also a close match, nontheless, he died before all the Brushy Bill stuff but his opinion on whether Garrett killed the Kid would be nice.
I think the story becomes more interesting if Hines is someone from the LCW days.
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Post by nmjames on Dec 8, 2016 18:13:05 GMT -5
james40,
There is information on Doc Scurlock. I have met three of his gg-grandsons. Doc is buried in Eastland, TX. Doc, Charlie Bowdre and a man by the name of Billy Gill were all married to Herrera sisters. I have information on all of them.
Last week, I came across a letter about Jesse Evans that I need to look into.
Texas Truth Teller Thanks for the information, I don't have time and will be gone a day or two. I will compare notes when I get back. I know J. Frank Dalton was not Jesse James.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 8, 2016 19:58:18 GMT -5
"If I was a naysayer, the first thing I would do is try to discredit Joe Hines, but I haven't seen that done anywhere. "
james40,
Morrison said his name was Joe Hines, and that his brother died in North Dakota. Morrison did not provide the brother's name, or the county where his property was located. The only credible record that might be the man Morrison interviewed, Joseph Hines, age 80, born in Missouri, appears in the 1940 census of Escambia County, Florida. It is impossible to discredit Joe Hines unless the name of his alleged brother is known. If neither of them were identified by their birth name, it is hopeless.
There is a wealth of census, marriage, divorce, and WWI registration records that prove Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879. There are marriage and census records that prove Oliver P. Roberts lived in Van Zandt County in 1910, the same time that Brushy Bill Roberts allegedly returned to the US from Mexico and claimed to have married Mollie Brown in 1912 in Van Zandt County while he was still in Mexico from 1905 until 1914.
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Post by james40 on Dec 8, 2016 21:40:27 GMT -5
"If I was a naysayer, the first thing I would do is try to discredit Joe Hines, but I haven't seen that done anywhere. " james40, Morrison said his name was Joe Hines, and that his brother died in North Dakota. Morrison did not provide the brother's name, or the county where his property was located. The only credible record that might be the man Morrison interviewed, Joseph Hines, age 80, born in Missouri, appears in the 1940 census of Escambia County, Florida. It is impossible to discredit Joe Hines unless the name of his alleged brother is known. If neither of them were identified by their birth name, it is hopeless. There is a wealth of census, marriage, divorce, and WWI registration records that prove Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879. There are marriage and census records that prove Oliver P. Roberts lived in Van Zandt County in 1910, the same time that Brushy Bill Roberts allegedly returned to the US from Mexico and claimed to have married Mollie Brown in 1912 in Van Zandt County while he was still in Mexico from 1905 until 1914. Which is fine, I'm really not either side of the issue. Frank Dalton, J Frank Dalton whatever was a goof IMHO, if Hines spent the last few years of his life claiming to be Wild Bill Hicock, or Frank James, etc,...., discrediting him would be easy. So again I ask you, who was he really and how did he know about Brushy Bill Roberts. |
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 9, 2016 1:22:36 GMT -5
"There is a wealth of census, marriage, divorce, and WWI registration records that prove Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879. There are marriage and census records that prove Oliver P. Roberts lived in Van Zandt County in 1910"
Absolutely true, but it continues to amaze me that some folks think this proves Brushy was a fraud. I say, what does it matter when Oliver P. Roberts was born, or where he lived in 1910 unless you can prove that he and Brushy were the same person, and you can't. Because they were not. If they were, it would have been proven along time ago.
My apologies this post is actually a bit off topic as far as this thread is concerned. I just couldn't let that sit unchallenged.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 9, 2016 10:08:09 GMT -5
"So again I ask you, who was he really and how did he know about Brushy Bill Roberts. "
james40,
Here's the short answer. I don't know who Joe Hines was, and I don't think anyone else knows either.
I'm not so sure that Joe Hines knew who Brushy Bill was. According to Morrison, Joe Hines said that Billy the Kid was not killed in 1882, and was living in Texas. Morrison tried to find out who this old man was, but Joe Hines would never reveal his name (maybe because he didn't know?). Morrison said Dalton knew all the parties concerned, implying that Dalton provided Morrison with the name and location of Brushy Bill. Morrison started corresponding with O. L. Roberts of Hamilton, Texas.
Dalton did know Brushy Bill. Brushy Bill was photographed in New York City in 1949 at the bedside of J. Frank Dalton. He was there to support J. Frank Dalton's claim that he was Brushy Bill. They both lived in Gregg County, Texas, in the 1940 census, and were photographed together on the ranch of DeWitt Travis.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 9, 2016 10:10:02 GMT -5
CORRECTION:
"So again I ask you, who was he really and how did he know about Brushy Bill Roberts. "
james40,
Here's the short answer. I don't know who Joe Hines was, and I don't think anyone else knows either.
I'm not so sure that Joe Hines knew who Brushy Bill was. According to Morrison, Joe Hines said that Billy the Kid was not killed in 1882, and was living in Texas. Morrison tried to find out who this old man was, but Joe Hines would never reveal his name (maybe because he didn't know?). Morrison said Dalton knew all the parties concerned, implying that Dalton provided Morrison with the name and location of Brushy Bill. Morrison started corresponding with O. L. Roberts of Hamilton, Texas.
Dalton did know Brushy Bill. Brushy Bill was photographed in New York City in 1949 at the bedside of J. Frank Dalton. He was there to support J. Frank Dalton's claim that he was JESSE WOODSON JAMES. They both lived in Gregg County, Texas, in the 1940 census, and were photographed together on the ranch of DeWitt Travis.
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Post by james40 on Dec 9, 2016 10:44:36 GMT -5
"There is a wealth of census, marriage, divorce, and WWI registration records that prove Oliver P. Roberts was born in Sebastian County, AR, in 1879. There are marriage and census records that prove Oliver P. Roberts lived in Van Zandt County in 1910" Absolutely true, but it continues to amaze me that some folks think this proves Brushy was a fraud. I say, what does it matter when Oliver P. Roberts was born, or where he lived in 1910 unless you can prove that he and Brushy were the same person, and you can't. Because they were not. If they were, it would have been proven along time ago. My apologies this post is actually a bit off topic as far as this thread is concerned. I just couldn't let that sit unchallenged. I'm not really on either side, although I don't believe this Dalton fellow was Jesse James, I would be tempted to believe the Courtney story over Daltons in that regard. Also, while I wouldn't equate outlaws from that era, LCW or not, Scurlock didn't leave the country which probably would have been a good idea considering his past, Jesse Evans, Dan Bogan(not LCW) were never heard of again, Butch Cassidy and Sundance (not LCW) did flee the country. If I remember right, Billy the Kid was the only one to not receive a pardon for his part in the LCW, if so why didn't he leave? As for Hines, again, I don't believe he just pulled the Billy the Kid living in Texas thing out of his butt, and how he came to know about it greatly interests me. |
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 9, 2016 23:26:58 GMT -5
“Because they were not. If they were, it would have been proven along time ago.”
You must be expressing your opinion. It is true that no death certificate exists for Henry McCarty/William Bonney. It is true that the death certificate of Brushy Bill Roberts indicates his name was Ollie L. Roberts (Didn’t he tell Morrison his name was William Henry Roberts?) His date of birth was listed as 31 December 1868 (Didn’t he tell Morrison he was born 31 December 1859?) His birthplace was listed as Taylor County, Texas (Didn’t he tell Morrison he was born at Buffalo Gap, Taylor County, Texas?) Taylor County, Texas, was beyond the frontier and had not been settled in 1859.
Brushy Bill Roberts and Oliver P. Roberts were two different men? That might explain why Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown 21 August 1912 in Van Zandt County while Brushy Bill was in Mexico from 1905 until 1914. But wait! Brushy Bill said he met Mollie Brown in 1912 and married her. Then there is this small problem with the two different men theory. Only one Oliver Roberts was counted in Van Zandt County in the 1910, 1920, and 1930 census. Where was the 2nd one? Time for the old unmarked grave theory. Brushy Bill married Mollie Brown as Oliver Roberts, signed his WWI draft registration card as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, was counted in the 1920 census as Oliver P. Roberts, and in the 1930 census as Oliver Roberts. For the 1940 census, he was listed as Ollie Roberts, the same name on the death certificate of his wife Luticia. He became O. L. Roberts when he married his last wife Melinda.
There are no legal documents which prove that Brushy Bill was Oliver P. Roberts. Circumstantial evidence indicates that Brushy Bill Roberts, Ollie L. Roberts, and O. L. Roberts were different names for Oliver P. Roberts.
If Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid, it would have been proven a long time ago. But it hasn’t been, and never will be. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. The only facts in Brushy Bill’s story that are indisputable are marriages to Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Malinda Allison, and his brief ownership of 40 acres in Sevier County, Arkansas. Granted, his knowledge of the Lincoln County war was impressive, but the same information is found in “The Saga of Billy the Kid”, by Walter Noble Burns. As for the affidavits that support his claim that he was Billy the Kid, only the affidavits of Sevier Gallegos and Jose B. Montoya might have some credibility. Martile Able, DeWitt Travis, and Robert E. Lee had never seen William Bonney/Henry McCarty.
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Post by mckinley412 on Dec 10, 2016 22:45:55 GMT -5
That's like saying if Billy the Kid died in 1881 it would have been proven a long time ago. I find it interesting how nobody in the world knew exactly what happened to Jesse Evans after LCW until Morrison showed everyone when and where he was released from prison. Was this because Joe Hines helped him? It's already been shown else where on the board that Walter Noble Burns did a lot of historical research to get the facts and Brushy repeated some of the same stuff because it was fact except Brushy corrected the places where Burns made mistakes. You can tell by the voice recording that Brushy was very hard to understand and he sounds like he was well past 70, probably by about 20 years and his story was taken from multiple interviews and notebooks and put into a chronological order, not only were his words hard to understand but he skipped back and forth between various subjects so if some of the dates don't add up then I personally am not ready to hang him yet. He said many odd things like Catherine was not his real mother, and Bonney was not a family name and how did he know 70 years later we wouldn't be able to prove otherwise. I don't why he said Dalton was Jesse James, maybe he had Alzheimer. If you were to read Jesse James the Outlaw you could possibly believe Dalton may have been Jesse but the hairlines aren't right. But neither is the death bed photo of Jesse compared to the not-dead-Jesse.
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Post by mkyzzzret on Dec 11, 2016 0:42:06 GMT -5
Wouldn't it more accurate to say: "If Brushy was NOT Billy, it would have been proven a long time ago"
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 11, 2016 0:47:39 GMT -5
"That's like saying if Billy the Kid died in 1881 it would have been proven a long time ago."
mckinley412, I guess that means that you do not believe the coroners jury report that the killing of Billy the Kid was justifiable homicide.
Do you believe the mythical Billy Barlow took one for the kid? That fits right in with J. Frank Dalton's story that the mythical Charlie Bigelow was buried in Jesse James coffin.
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