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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 11, 2016 2:29:12 GMT -5
"There are no legal documents which prove that Brushy Bill was Oliver P. Roberts." Indeed!
From 1910 or so up until Morrison found him, Brushy Bill identified himself as Ollie Roberts or O.L. Roberts. But some want to insist that the marriage to Mollie Brown in 1912 was the real Oliver so Brushy can't be Billy because he was actually Oliver because he was the one that married Mollie? Huh? If Billy The Kid takes an alias of Oliver Roberts and decides to get married, then why "wouldn't he" identify himself by his alias. Are should we think the real Billy would have confessed his identify rather than put a fake name on his marriage certificate(s)? I just don't get it when folks talk in circles trying to prove a negative with a negative, sort of.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 11, 2016 11:58:50 GMT -5
“Are (sic) should we think the real Billy would have confessed his identify rather than put a fake name on his marriage certificate(s)? I just don't get it when folks talk in circles trying to prove a negative with a negative, sort of.”
These are the facts. No circles. No negatives. The theory that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid is based on Brushy Bill’s claim that Pat Garrett killed his partner, (Billy Barlow?), not Billy the Kid, and Brushy Bill fled to Mexico. 1. No record of Billy Barlow has ever been found. 2. The Territory of New Mexico prosecuted Billy the Kid as William Antrim / William Bonney. 3. Garrett identified him as William H. Bonney, or Billy. 4. Contemporary newspaper articles identified him as Henry Antrim, or the Kid. 5. The Santa Fe marriage record of his mother identified him as Henry McCarty. 6. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, and a marriage record shows Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown in 1912. 7. Brushy Bill registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1878. 8. Brushy Bill was listed in the 1920 census as Oliver P. Roberts. 9. The birth date of Oliver P. Roberts was 26 August 1879, a date found in the Bible of his niece. 10. The 1910 census, marriage record and divorce record of Oliver Roberts and Anna Lee proves that Oliver P. Roberts lived in Van Zandt County, Texas, in 1910.
There was no known connection between the name of William Henry Roberts and Billy the Kid in 1912. Brushy Bill could have safely used his alleged birth name, William Henry Roberts, when he married Mollie Brown, Loutecia Ballard, and Melinda Allison, and when he was counted in the 1920, 1930, and 1940 census, and in the WWI registration. Instead, he chose to use the name of Oliver Roberts, a local Van Zandt County resident, and risk being identified as an impostor.
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Post by Wayne Land on Dec 11, 2016 20:11:54 GMT -5
"6. Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown, and a marriage record shows Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown in 1912."
This is exactly what I'm referring to as going around in circles, etc. True, Brushy Bill said he married Mollie Brown and true the record shows Oliver Roberts married her. The assertion, I assume, is that proves Brushy was Oliver. But that is not proof of anything accept that Brushy called himself Oliver Roberts at the time he married her. It doesn't at all prove that he actually "was" Oliver. Why is this so difficult to understand? I don't get it.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 12, 2016 22:35:13 GMT -5
“I don't get it.” I agree with that statement.
“But that is not proof of anything accept (sic) that Brushy called himself Oliver Roberts at the time he married her.”
There you go again, making assumptions. The vital statistics record shows that Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown 21 August 1912. No more, no less. It IS NOT proof that Brushy Bill called himself Oliver Roberts. Or maybe it is proof that Oliver P. Roberts told Morrison his name was Brushy Bill. Oliver P. Roberts, in his latter years, wanted to be known first as Ollie, a common nickname for Oliver. Next he wanted to be O. L. Roberts, then Brushy Bill Roberts, then William Henry Roberts and Billy the Kid. You do remember that the niece of Oliver P. Roberts said he was born 26 August 1879. Mollie Roberts’ husband said he was born 26 August 1878 (the 1900 census shows that Oliver P. Roberts was born August 1879).
The fact remains, the birth day of Oliver P. Roberts was 26 August. The husband of Mollie Brown said his birthday was 26 August. Oliver Roberts married Anna Lee in 1909 and divorced her 1910. Oliver Roberts married Mollie Brown 21 August 1912. All this happened in Van Zandt County. And you are trying to convince me that Oliver P. Roberts and Brushy Bill were two different men? I don't think so.
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Post by jgaines on Dec 13, 2016 17:47:01 GMT -5
For what its worth, Jesse Evans was released from Huntsville in 1882, and seemingly never heard from again. I'd like to find the funeral records for "Joe Hines" If there's nobody there named Hines, then he probably wasn't named Hines. Its really easy to find News Paper articles on Doc Scurlock. He lived a long life and was well liked in Eastland County. I think you can find an article on him from the Abilene paper from when he died. Back to the subject . Are there no records for how Morrison proved Hines was whoever he said he was ? Isn't probate stuff public record ? this is a very interesting part of the story, since Hines / Morrison were able to satisfy a judge.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 13, 2016 18:16:41 GMT -5
jgaines, If you believe Brett Hall in "The Real Billy the Kid AKA Brushy Bill Roberts", probate records filed in Ward and Ramsey counties, North Dakota, may have the answer to your question. Hall said Joe Hines was William Campbell. Inexplicably, Hall identifed Joe Hines' real name, but didn't bother to provide the name of the deceased brother of Joe Hines.
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Post by Texas Truth Teller on Dec 14, 2016 0:33:18 GMT -5
jgaines, This is found on the internet at www.genealogy.com/forum/general/topics/outlaws/5928/" . . . Joseph L. Hines . . . was really born Jesse R. James and his brother Morgan was born Franklin Morgan James. The two brothers changed their names to avoid being confused with the legendary bandits from Missouri, Frank and Jesse James. Hence, they adopted the aliases William & Morgan Campbell. [Joe] Hines claimed that his brother maintained his 'adopted name' [Morgan Campbell] for the remainder of his life. He [Morgan] had no need to change it because he 'wasn't an outlaw or a wanted man.' [Joe] Hines maintained that even though he was using his adopted name William Campbell, during his days in New Mexico, rumors were always popping up that he was 'the Jesse James' from Missouri.
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Post by mckinley412 on Dec 14, 2016 1:31:14 GMT -5
That's interesting because Lew Wallace's claimed Jesse James was present at the killing of Chapman and the DC investigator Frank Angel, I think was his name, or Warner or Stewart, he said William Campbell was an alias for Jesse James. I only said Dalton was not the famous Jesse because of hairlines. I still don't know how anyone knows the famous pics of Jesse are actually J. Woodson James and not a cousin, say J. Robert James. They were already confused on a census. Maybe... Maybe... There's stuff everybody got wrong...
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Post by mckinley412 on Apr 17, 2017 14:32:49 GMT -5
Also in the 1940 Census there is a Joseph Hines that was born in Missouri in 1860 and living in Florida with a couple people. He is listed as 'boarder' and he is listed as white. It is believed that Jesse Evans was born in Missouri... also... but when you view the actual document it doesn't actually say 1860 so he could have been born in 1859 and supposedly Morrison believed his client was born in August 1859 which adds up since the census was taken in April and the man's age is listed as 80. So he would be 81 that year. I clicked on the link a few posts up and it's saying that Evans and Hines/Cambell/James were two different people but I don't think so because Morrison got the prison release document and they addressed to Hines alias Jesse Evans. I wish these people didn't use so many aliases.
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Post by jgaines on May 4, 2017 10:33:33 GMT -5
Regarding who was Joe Hines, there was a recent post on the Cold West facebook site where someone made a statement that Jessee Evan's mother's maiden name was Hinds. Easy to see how Hines and Hinds could be confused. Is this just a coincidence ? Could be. I briefly looked on Ancestry.com and what I saw indicates Evan's stepmother was a Hinds. May be worth a look.
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Post by chivato88 on Aug 7, 2022 19:23:00 GMT -5
Philip J Rasch mentions in his book "Gunsmoke in Lincoln county "p 253, William Campbell was actually a man named Hines.
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Post by eeriedayze on Feb 17, 2023 10:09:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure if there is actual documentation that Jessie Evans used the alias Hines until Morrison wrote the letter to the Huntsville prison inferring his alias was Hines.
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