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Post by texas truth teller on Oct 18, 2023 13:14:26 GMT -5
Did Governor Mabry mention at his meeting with Brushy that the writer of Saga of Billy the kid is his family? If Brushy apparently got all his info from saga shouldn't Mabry mention his own relationship with Walter Noble Burns? Gov Mabry was related by marriage. His wife Kate Burns Mabry was a 2nd cousin of Walter Noble Burns. 2nd cousins, descendants of Alvin Burns Alvin Burns 1812-aft 1900>Enoch Burns 1843-1897>Kate Mabry 1886-1958 Alvin Burns 1812-aft 1900>Thomas Edgar Burns 1837-1908>Walter Noble Burns 1866-1932
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Post by Bingo on Oct 18, 2023 13:57:29 GMT -5
Did Governor Mabry mention at his meeting with Brushy that the writer of Saga of Billy the kid is his family? If Brushy apparently got all his info from saga shouldn't Mabry mention his own relationship with Walter Noble Burns? Did Morrison mention that he was related to the Maxwell's and he was trying to divert what his dirty family done.
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Post by texas truth teller on Oct 18, 2023 14:59:02 GMT -5
So I'm fairly certain that Dan will eventually show us one of the last correspondance's from Brushy to Morrison where he indicated who gave him the nickname "Bonney". If there are details on how Belle Reid came up with that, I believe that would be extremely valuable to this argument. IMO, names and all that, while interesting are not nearly as valuable as the actual geographic whereabouts. I must confess I find the argument that Brushy "read" all this infomation to be so farfetched. Look, even if one believes that to be true, what is the motive behind it? I work in HR, ALL actions that human beings take have motives behind them. I cannot find a motive behind the Brushy story? Fame...nope, money...nope....fantasy...negative...Psychotic/Crazy....Nope.....So with all this said, what other "motives" if you believe in the "book theory" would cause someone to create this story and actually try and get a pardon? A valid question. What could have been the motive? J. Frank Dalton made headlines throughout the country and became a temporary celebrity in 1948 when he announced he was Jesse James. Lester Dill and Rudy Turelli capitalized on the publicity and moved Dalton to Mermen Caverns in Missouri as a tourist attraction. Later Dalton was interviewed in New York City. Oliver P Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, knew Dalton. They were photographed together on DeWitt Travis' ranch. They were photographed in Stanton, Missouri, at Dalton's birthday party. They were photographed in New York City. Did Oliver P Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, crave the brief fame that J Frank Dalton had found? The life of Oliver Roberts is documented at 10 year intervals from his birth in Bates Township, Sebastian County, AR, until his death in Hamilton County in 1950. The story that Oliver P Roberts permanently vanished from Van Zandt County about 1911 and that Brushy assumed his identity has no basis in fact. No grave, no death record, no presence in census records elsewhere.
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Post by DanJohno on Oct 18, 2023 18:31:46 GMT -5
Did Governor Mabry mention at his meeting with Brushy that the writer of Saga of Billy the kid is his family? If Brushy apparently got all his info from saga shouldn't Mabry mention his own relationship with Walter Noble Burns? Did Morrison mention that he was related to the Maxwell's and he was trying to divert what his dirty family done. Why were the Maxwell's or the Morrison's dirty?
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Post by devorerd on Oct 19, 2023 7:32:33 GMT -5
So I'm fairly certain that Dan will eventually show us one of the last correspondance's from Brushy to Morrison where he indicated who gave him the nickname "Bonney". If there are details on how Belle Reid came up with that, I believe that would be extremely valuable to this argument. IMO, names and all that, while interesting are not nearly as valuable as the actual geographic whereabouts. I must confess I find the argument that Brushy "read" all this infomation to be so farfetched. Look, even if one believes that to be true, what is the motive behind it? I work in HR, ALL actions that human beings take have motives behind them. I cannot find a motive behind the Brushy story? Fame...nope, money...nope....fantasy...negative...Psychotic/Crazy....Nope.....So with all this said, what other "motives" if you believe in the "book theory" would cause someone to create this story and actually try and get a pardon? A valid question. What could have been the motive? J. Frank Dalton made headlines throughout the country and became a temporary celebrity in 1948 when he announced he was Jesse James. Lester Dill and Rudy Turelli capitalized on the publicity and moved Dalton to Mermen Caverns in Missouri as a tourist attraction. Later Dalton was interviewed in New York City. Oliver P Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, knew Dalton. They were photographed together on DeWitt Travis' ranch. They were photographed in Stanton, Missouri, at Dalton's birthday party. They were photographed in New York City. Did Oliver P Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, crave the brief fame that J Frank Dalton had found? The life of Oliver Roberts is documented at 10 year intervals from his birth in Bates Township, Sebastian County, AR, until his death in Hamilton County in 1950. The story that Oliver P Roberts permanently vanished from Van Zandt County about 1911 and that Brushy assumed his identity has no basis in fact. No grave, no death record, no presence in census records elsewhere. Recognizing your narrative on who you think Brushy really was (Ollie P) the fame motive doesn't have any merit. Simply put, If Brushy was seeking fame and your inference is that he saw Dalton get a little of it, why didn't he admit who he was immediately when Morrison reached out as to his true identity, instead of being coy? Additionally, if that was a "motive" and he had been studying the books about BTK, suggesting he waited until Dalton's 15min to make his move? That really doesn't add up? TTT, I ask you to step out of the mechanical census world and enter into the human psyche. When humans are wronged, they do one of two things; Seek revenge or attempt to prove their case for their own well being. Any other theories on the motive behind Brushy's story? Cheers..
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 19, 2023 8:26:30 GMT -5
Excellent post Devorerd. Thank you! Along the same line, there are many questions about this alleged "motive". For example, why did he insist the meeting with Gov. Mabry be private and secretive? These issues go to the heart of why I believe Brushy. As you say, "enter into the human psyche". What you find will not be in the census records.
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WhisperingBillyBarlow
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Post by WhisperingBillyBarlow on Oct 19, 2023 23:06:47 GMT -5
Over on another thread, I've been exchanging comments with our very knowledgeable board member "nmjames" regarding the lineage of Brushy Bill. I've decided to try and move the conversation over to this category of "Revelations and Contradictions" and try and solicit opinions from additional board members. Here's what I believe is the most thought provoking dilemma regarding Brushy's story. If his alleged natural mother, Mary Adeline Dunn and father, John (or James) H Roberts were fictitious characters as it appears they likely were, then why make them up in the first place? Why did Brushy not tell the truth about his parentage? And if they were real, then how is it they have so many similarities with other Roberts family members that can't possibly be his parents? Was there really a brother to Henry Oliver Roberts named John or James who was married to the half sister of Catherine Bonney? It doesn't appear there was. In fact I'm becoming more inclined to believe that Brushy fabricated these individuals by combining names and stories of other relatives of the Roberts family. If he really was Billy The Kid then why would he do that? On the other hand, if he wasn't really Billy The Kid, then why wouldn't he just stick with the accepted lineage? There's no reason he needed to inject all those made up family members. It only serves to make his story more questionable. It just doesn't make sense in my opinion. But, I strongly believe he "was" Billy The Kid. I'm willing to concede he was not if I see enough evidence to the contrary, but the contrary evidence has not yet risen to that level in my opinion. Make no mistake here, I'm still a "believer" in Brushy's claim. But my reaction when confronted with such evidence is to try and resolve in my own mind, what possible explanation or explanations there may be. So I have to admit I'm struggling with these questions about who his real parents and grandparents were. The problem with "possible explanations" is that they sometimes have little or no evidence to support them. These I'm going to throw out here definitely fall in the "no evidence" column but I'm going to share them anyway. Ready or not, here goes! Theory 1: Brushy truly was the natural born son of Catherine Bonney but by the 1890's, he was growing tired of being on the run, constantly worried someone would discover him. He came across the dead O. L. Roberts, retrieved his belongings as he claimed, and went to Texas with idea of impersonating this fellow and taking on his identity. Elizabeth Roberts was a bit looney at the time and believed he was her lost son. The rest of the family humored her. By 1948 when he met William Morrison, he had become accepted as the real Oliver Roberts and had a life there as a member of that family which he did not want to completely abandon. So he made up the story of how he "really was" a Roberts who had become Billy The Kid and at long last had returned to his family in Texas. He wanted to be remembered as being born a Roberts. Theory 2: Brushy was not the natural born son of Catherine Bonney and possibly not related to her at all, but she knew his real mother and took him in as her son at a very young age when the mother died. Over the next 10 years or so, Catherine shared this with him and told him his real mother was a Roberts. When he decided to take on the alias of Oliver Roberts and eventually met William Morrison, he tried to fill in the blanks using existing family names. He knew the details he gave were made up or at the best, guess work, but he thought his true identity of Billy The Kid would be more easily believed if he provided such details. And again, he didn't want to be remembered as just "Billy The Kid". He wanted to be remembered as a Roberts. What is your theory? Please feel free to speculate. Sometimes the truth really is stranger than fiction. I'm just sayin'. I believe that the stories are rooted in reality, but not as one assumes. The only grandfather Brushy would've known was Matthew Russell Birdwell, and it's in that line you see an Indian grandmother and relatives who knew General Sam Houston, etc. You also see on this family line the outlaw George Birdwell, who died in 1932. Perhaps an inspiration for Brushy. Furthermore, it seems MRB had land as far as Arizona and Nevada which would've made Brushy intimate with the land if he worked for his step-grandfather. Now on the Dunn and Roberts line, there was people like Francis Dunn who allegedly knew Jesse James. There are also names like Ogden in the family tree that potentially has ties to Jesse James, too. And of course, there is a familial line between the Roberts family and the Antrim family when both were in Ohio. It's possible that these potentially were 2nd or 3rd cousins (I haven't proven it concretely there seems to be a missing piece between Brushy's great grandfather and the Roberts I mentioned). I think it possible Brushy put together the whole story over the course of years. There are newspapers going back to the 1920s or earlier of Brushy as a champion rider of horses and fighting Indians, etc. But, it's the 1930s that is troubling. At least as early as 1935 "J. Frank Dalton" was living in the same county as Brushy Bill Roberts, and the two became the best of friends. From that point onwards it seems the story went from "I knew/was related" to "I am Billy." Now, could it be possible uncle Francis Dunn didn't really know Jesse James but instead knew J. Frank Dalton? Perhaps. There's a lot of potential what ifs.... problem is what ifs have no relation to reality, they are non questions. And when it comes to Brushy Bill Roberts there's so many what ifs that we have to disregard them whether you are pro Brushy or anti Brushy alike. So that leaves us with what Morrison left us, and the different characters in question. The sworn affidavits, virtually all of them, were from unreliable or fraudulent people. So they can be disregarded. Roberts familiarity with places and events can be two-fold: He had such knowledge because of his step-grandfather MRB and his father Henry and other family members as well as his own experiences, and/or he read such things from various sources. Which is more likely? He was Billy The Kid or he was a curiosity seeker with wanderlust and soaked everything he could like a sponge? What's left is basically a man with large wrists, small hands, with knife and bullet wounds who bore a similar appearance to a famous individual. How likely is it to come across someone in your own family or in your own lifetime who looked like yourself? I think the odds are higher than people wish to admit. As for the scars... he was a native of Texas, and I do believe he did work on cattle drives, etc. People tried to steal cattle all the time, or steal horses. I can see the probability of getting stabbed or shot in the 1880s-1920s to be pretty high in essentially the Old West. You didn't need to be Billy The Kid for that to occur. That being said, I'm open to the idea he was Billy The Kid or that his father Henry was since he fits more to the timeline than Brushy. Or (plot twist) maybe O.P./O.L. Roberts the alleged cousin was Billy The Kid since Brushy claimed he took the identity of his cousin. Perhaps Billy took Brushy's identity and died elsewhere. All I know is the official story from Garrett and company had so many holes in it and no body produced or photographs that it begs the question whether it was all a lie. Perhaps John Miller was Barlow. Again, these are all what ifs and can be discarded. But I think from Roberts known genealogy one can easily imagine that's where he got the stories from because he was indeed related to some pretty remarkable people. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all
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Post by tboor74 on Oct 20, 2023 6:07:01 GMT -5
Nice post, lots of interesting viewpoints.
As an aside, is it welcome back?
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Post by Texas truth teller on Oct 20, 2023 16:18:06 GMT -5
A valid question. What could have been the motive? J. Frank Dalton made headlines throughout the country and became a temporary celebrity in 1948 when he announced he was Jesse James. Lester Dill and Rudy Turelli capitalized on the publicity and moved Dalton to Mermen Caverns in Missouri as a tourist attraction. Later Dalton was interviewed in New York City. Oliver P Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, knew Dalton. They were photographed together on DeWitt Travis' ranch. They were photographed in Stanton, Missouri, at Dalton's birthday party. They were photographed in New York City. Did Oliver P Roberts, aka Brushy Bill, crave the brief fame that J Frank Dalton had found? The life of Oliver Roberts is documented at 10 year intervals from his birth in Bates Township, Sebastian County, AR, until his death in Hamilton County in 1950. The story that Oliver P Roberts permanently vanished from Van Zandt County about 1911 and that Brushy assumed his identity has no basis in fact. No grave, no death record, no presence in census records elsewhere. Recognizing your narrative on who you think Brushy really was (Ollie P) the fame motive doesn't have any merit. Simply put, If Brushy was seeking fame and your inference is that he saw Dalton get a little of it, why didn't he admit who he was immediately when Morrison reached out as to his true identity, instead of being coy? Additionally, if that was a "motive" and he had been studying the books about BTK, suggesting he waited until Dalton's 15min to make his move? That really doesn't add up? TTT, I ask you to step out of the mechanical census world and enter into the human psyche. When humans are wronged, they do one of two things; Seek revenge or attempt to prove their case for their own well being. Any other theories on the motive behind Brushy's story? Cheers.. Devored, you are correct. Descriptions of events in books are not proof. Possible motives are simply speculation. Census records are sterile, contemporary records. What is needed is a personal recollection. Letter dated August 2, 1986 from Rev Paul Emerson to Dr William A Tunstill, author of “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”: “Dear Mr. Tunstill, I have read your letters and articles you have sent my sister, Eulaine Haws, about Oliver (Brushy Bill) Roberts, who said he was Billy the Kid. You have certainly done a lot of research and worked hard and I find it very interesting to say the very least. I remember meeting Oliver Roberts, who was my grandmother’s brother, not too long before my grandmother died. She was Martha Vada Roberts Heath, and was my mother’s mother.
Oliver came to see her in Jacksonville, Texas, and I met him. He was a very dikey little man that paraded around in western clothes and cowboy boots and said he was Billy the Kid. I wish I would have listened more carefully to what he had to say, spent more time in his presence, and got him to tell me some of his stories, but I was young and too busy I guess. To be honest, my grandmother did not believe he was Billy the Kid and did not have confidence in what he said. She thought it was in the imagination of the mind. I am enclosing a copy of a newspaper clipping about his death that I found in my mother’s papers after her death. On the back is a note written by aunt Cora Heath, Martha Roberts Heath’s second oldest daughter. She said, ‘O. L. Roberts was my mother’s brother. He was around 75 years of age when he died and he was not Billy the Kid.’ I feel sure she expressed the sentiment of my grandmother about the subject. If Oliver was really her cousin and not her brother as the theory goes, she did not know it or ever tell it to any of the children. i lived next door to my grandmother for a number of years in her older days, and her mind was very sharp until the day of her death. She was a person that talked about her family and her children to everyone, sparing nothing, but I never remember hearing her say or express at any time that Oliver was not her brother. She just discounted what he said as a ‘state of mind’.”
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Post by DanJohno on Oct 20, 2023 19:26:45 GMT -5
Why does TTT's name keep changing from capital T to lower case t in this thread? Does she have multiple accounts or is Texas Truth Teller a group of people posting?
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Post by TeXaS TrUtH TeLLeR on Oct 20, 2023 20:31:15 GMT -5
Why does TTT's name keep changing from capital T to lower case t in this thread? Does she have multiple accounts or is Texas Truth Teller a group of people posting? DanJohno, it's just me, myself, and I. Who was Brushy Bill? Brushy revealed his identity when he registered for the WWI draft. He completed the registration card, and signed as Oliver Pleasant Roberts on 12 September 1918. He was born 26 August 1878. His nearest relative was Mollie Roberts. On page 57 of “Alias Billy the Kid”, Brushy said he met and married Mollie Brown. A Van Zandt County marriage record reveals W. S. Mills united Oliver Roberts and Mollie Brown in marriage 21 August 1912. Brushy’s niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, said that Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts, born 26 August 1879. Oliver Roberts lived with his parents in Hopkins County, Texas, in the 1900 census. His birth date was recorded as August 1879. Oliver Roberts was in Van Zandt County in 1909, 1910, 1912, 1920, 1929, and 1930. He was known as Ollie Roberts in Gregg County in 1935 and 1940, and in Hamilton County in 1944. He was known as O L Roberts in Hamilton County in 1945 and 1950. Oliver was about 52 years old in 1930. Ten years later, in 1940, Ollie Roberts'age had jumped 18 years and was about 70. Twenty years later, in 1950, O L Roberts, a cowboy rancher was about 88 years old, was creeping up toward the desired 1859 birth date. There is no evidence that Oliver Pleasant Roberts died about 1911, or otherwise permanent disappeared.
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Post by DanJohno on Oct 20, 2023 21:35:54 GMT -5
Why does TTT's name keep changing from capital T to lower case t in this thread? Does she have multiple accounts or is Texas Truth Teller a group of people posting? DanJohno, it's just me, myself, and I. Who was Brushy Bill? Brushy revealed his identity when he registered for the WWI draft. He completed the registration card, and signed as Oliver Pleasant Roberts on 12 September 1918. He was born 26 August 1878. His nearest relative was Mollie Roberts. On page 57 of “Alias Billy the Kid”, Brushy said he met and married Mollie Brown. A Van Zandt County marriage record reveals W. S. Mills united Oliver Roberts and Mollie Brown in marriage 21 August 1912. Brushy’s niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, said that Brushy was Oliver P. Roberts, born 26 August 1879. Oliver Roberts lived with his parents in Hopkins County, Texas, in the 1900 census. His birth date was recorded as August 1879. Oliver Roberts was in Van Zandt County in 1909, 1910, 1912, 1920, 1929, and 1930. He was known as Ollie Roberts in Gregg County in 1935 and 1940, and in Hamilton County in 1944. He was known as O L Roberts in Hamilton County in 1945 and 1950. Oliver was about 52 years old in 1930. Ten years later, in 1940, Ollie Roberts'age had jumped 18 years and was about 70. Twenty years later, in 1950, O L Roberts, a cowboy rancher was about 88 years old, was creeping up toward the desired 1859 birth date. There is no evidence that Oliver Pleasant Roberts died about 1911, or otherwise permanent disappeared. I wish you would follow Devorerd's advice and step out of the mechanical. You ignore so many good questions and just post bulk census records over and over. I'm starting to think your account is one of those chat bots.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 21, 2023 10:05:48 GMT -5
TTT has no "account". He/She just posts as a "guest" and has been doing so for years. I have to say I grow weary of reading the same tired census records again and again. But I don't see a legitimate reason to ban her/him. Even if "she" did ban me years ago from a site "she" ran simply because I mentioned the name of Brushy several times.
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Post by Wayne Land on Oct 21, 2023 10:10:33 GMT -5
Yes, I strongly suspect "WhisperingBillyBarlow" is a former member of the board who was banned. I suspect that because of the use of the exact same salutation at the end of posts. But if that is the case, he/she is behaving more acceptably under this new screen name and I don't believe in holding grudges. So I'm watching/monitoring.
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Post by tboor74 on Oct 21, 2023 12:12:20 GMT -5
I hesitated on saying 'welcome back' as the post was very balanced and subjective....
...which is good for debate.
That's what I like to read, whatever the subject.
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