|
Post by Frank on Jul 25, 2022 9:05:55 GMT -5
Im glad to see there's been alot of discussion since I last logged on, I just wanted to add that Brushy's claims makes better sense than the alternative Billy the Kid stories you read of his life, the fact is Billy had to have been taught by someone sometime in his life, some survival knowledge and even some combat knowledge , also horsemanship, people that knew him said that Billy was a fine horseman. As a teenager left to fend for himself riding for miles in the hot desert would need to have known survival skills , I dont know how much growing up in the streets of New York played a part in his horsemanship and survival skills or even later living with a stepfather who was a miner , (to my knowledge it was never mentioned he was a rancher or farmer?) had taught him horsemanship and survival skills especially since the man didnt show much of an interest in the boys well being after the death of Billy's mother, but Brushy's real father did have a ranch, he did learn to ride and break in horses, Brushy's real father was a soldier , I believe he very well could have taught him horsemanship, talked about basic combat skills and war stories he shared with him, it makes better sense that Brushy/ Billy would take that knowledge and use it to survive later. Some can argue Billy's friend Sombrero Jack or his pals taught him these things, but I believe he grew up knowing them, Sombrero Jack or his pals could have taught him some gambling skills, and rustling cattle, the skills how to get by, but I really believe Billy knew alot from experience being raised with horses and cattle, he took that knowledge and practiced shooting and developed his shooting skills and combined with his fathers combat stories he utilized those as well during the Lincoln County War where he didnt break under pressure but was calm and with clear mind gave commands and got out of a burning house alive while being surrounded, he became a leader and commanded respect at a young age, maybe he was just smart but more likely he listened and learned from a soldier. To me Brushy's story makes more sense. I really would like to hear others thoughts on this theory. This although its just a theory combined with the photo comparison and the other facts Wayne mentions more than convinces me.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Jul 25, 2022 15:19:16 GMT -5
That's an interesting post Frank. You should join our board and post more often. Thanks for sharing your insight.
|
|
|
Post by texas truth teller on Oct 11, 2023 15:59:49 GMT -5
Brushy told Morrison his name was William Henry Roberts, and that he was Billy the Kid. Brushy’s detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County was impressive, very similar to the description found in “Saga of Billy the Kid”, by Walter Noble Burns.
Census, marriage, death, and land records show that Brushy was Oliver Roberts.
On September 12, 1918, Brushy registered for the WWI draft as required by law. He signed the registration card with his birth name, Oliver Pleasant Roberts, and said he was born August 26, 1879. He was a resident of Little River County, Arkansas, and his nearest relative was Mollie Roberts. Van Zandt County marriage records reveal Oliver Roberts and Mollie Brown were married August 21, 1912, in Canton.
Brushy told Morrison that he had been known as - Kid, Hugo Kid, Texas Kid, Kid Roberts. Brushy did not suggest that Oliver was an alias.
Some argue that William Henry Roberts assumed the identity of Oliver Pleasant Roberts about 1911 to conceal his identity as Billy the Kid. Literature had identified Billy the Kid as William Bonney or William Antrim, not William Henry Roberts. A name change to Oliver Roberts would be meaningless.
It is a proven fact that Oliver Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County when he married Anna Lee in July 1909 and divorced her in November 1910. No evidence has been found that Oliver Roberts died, changed his name, permanently moved, or otherwise completely disappeared from Van Zandt County about 1911.
After Mollie died in Arkansas in February 1919. Oliver returned to Van Zandt County. He married the widow Lutecia Ballard Isaac January 26, 1929. After her death, he married Malinda Elizabeth Murrell Hooper Allison in January 1945 as O. L. Roberts. By 1940, Oliver had begun to misrepresent his age, and changed his identity to Ollie, or O L Roberts, as shown on his 1950 death certificate.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 11, 2023 16:30:00 GMT -5
Brushy's birth name was William Henry Roberts. He had extensive knowledge of many of the facts regarding Billy The Kid and the Lincoln County War some of which were verified when correctly described in Walter Noble Burns' book "Saga of Billy The Kid". Brushy differed from the book "Saga" where the book got some things wrong.
Census, marriage, death and land records show that Brushy was pretending to be Oliver Roberts.
Not surprisingly, on September 12, 1918, Brushy registered for the WWI draft as required by law and again pretended to be Oliver Roberts.
Brushy told Morrison that he had been known as - Kid, Hugo Kid, Texas Kid, Kid Roberts. Brushy did admit the name Oliver was an alias he had taken from a cousin.
Necessary or not, Brushy continued to use the name Oliver just in case his real name William H. Roberts could be traced back to his identity as Billy The Kid.
It is a proven fact that Oliver Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County when he married Anna Lee in July 1909 and divorced her in November 1910. No evidence has been found that Oliver Roberts died, changed his name, permanently moved, but we know something happened to cause his disappearance.
After Mollie died in Arkansas in February 1919. Oliver returned to Van Zandt County. He married the widow Lutecia Ballard Isaac January 26, 1929. After her death, he married Malinda Elizabeth Murrell Hooper Allison in January 1945 as O. L. Roberts. By 1940, Oliver had begun to misrepresent his age, and changed his identity to Ollie, or O L Roberts, as shown on his 1950 death certificate.
|
|
|
Post by texas truth teller on Oct 12, 2023 15:52:36 GMT -5
Brushy’s detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County was impressive, very similar to the description found in “Saga of Billy the Kid”, by Walter Noble Burns. “Brushy differed from the book ‘Saga’ where the book got some things wrong.” Brushy was not present during the Lincoln County war. He had read the book, related what he could remember from his notes, and added unsubstantiated information. Brushy SAID his birth name was William Henry Roberts. No evidence has been found that supports that claim. “His real name, the old man said, was William Henry Roberts. At the age of THREE, he changed it.” What was his new name? He was William McCarty and a witness at the marriage of his step-father, William Henry Antrim and aunt Catherine in Santa Fe in 1873. Census, marriage, death, and land records are a contemporary record of events. Brushy registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1878. Oliver P Roberts, son of Henry and Sarah Roberts, was in their household in the 1900 census of Hopkins County, TX. He was born August 1879. Oliver’s niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, quoting from a family Bible, also said he was born 26 August 1879. On September 12, 1918, Brushy registered for the WWI draft as required by law. Brushy was not pretending. He was born 26 August 1879. The third registration was held on September 12, 1918, for men age 18 through 45. Oliver P Roberts was 40 and required to register. William Henry Roberts, if he had existed, would have been 60 and not required to register. Brushy told Morrison that he had been known as - Kid, Hugo Kid, Texas Kid, Kid Roberts. Brushy did not imply that Oliver was an alias. “Brushy did admit the name Oliver was an alias he had taken from a cousin.” Oliver P Roberts did not have a cousin named Ollie. Brushy’s story included a reference to cousin Ollie, killed in Oklahoma. A man named William Henry Roberts never existed, and had no cousin named Ollie. Brushy’s information is as accurate as Grimm’s fairy tales. “Necessary or not, Brushy continued to use the name Oliver just in case his real name William H Roberts could be traced back to his identity as Billy the Kid.” What a stretch!! In over 40 years since the death of BtK, has anyone found any evidence of a man named William Henry Roberts, or information that suggests such a connection? It is a proven fact that Oliver Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County when he married Anna Lee in July 1909 and divorced her in November 1910. No evidence has been found that Oliver Roberts died, changed his name, permanently moved, or otherwise completely disappeared from Van Zandt County about 1911. “but we KNOW that something happened to cause his disappearance.” Please tell us what we KNOW about the disappearance of the real Oliver P Roberts.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 12, 2023 19:19:26 GMT -5
I believe you missed the point or at least you represent it as such. My response to your previous post was intended to show that the simple facts do not necessarily demonstrate the whole truth of a matter/situation. As such, the "facts" can be construed to prove one thing or another depending on how they are interpreted. I wanted to demonstrate that most or all of the facts you pointed to could be viewed as supporting Brushy's claim as opposed to debunking it. It just take a different mindset.
Then you responded by offering more facts. But your facts don't prove the truth. Not to me anyway. I know you'll never be willing to look at it differently, but I guess it's fun to try and help you see through different glasses. I should probably give up on that.
|
|
|
Post by texas truth teller on Oct 13, 2023 12:25:55 GMT -5
Brushy’s detailed knowledge of the Lincoln County was impressive, very similar to the description found in “Saga of Billy the Kid”, by Walter Noble Burns. “Brushy differed from the book ‘Saga’ where the book got some things wrong.” Brushy was not present during the Lincoln County war. He had read the book, related what he could remember from his notes, and added unsubstantiated information. Brushy SAID his birth name was William Henry Roberts. No evidence has been found that supports that claim. “His real name, the old man said, was William Henry Roberts. At the age of THREE, he changed it.” What was his new name? He was William McCarty and a witness at the marriage of his step-father, William Henry Antrim and aunt Catherine in Santa Fe in 1873. Census, marriage, death, and land records are a contemporary record of events. Brushy registered for the WWI draft as Oliver Pleasant Roberts, born 26 August 1878. Oliver P Roberts, son of Henry and Sarah Roberts, was in their household in the 1900 census of Hopkins County, TX. He was born August 1879. Oliver’s niece, Geneva Roberts Pittmon, quoting from a family Bible, also said he was born 26 August 1879. On September 12, 1918, Brushy registered for the WWI draft as required by law. Brushy was not pretending. He was born 26 August 1879. The third registration was held on September 12, 1918, for men age 18 through 45. Oliver P Roberts was 40 and required to register. William Henry Roberts, if he had existed, would have been 60 and not required to register. Brushy told Morrison that he had been known as - Kid, Hugo Kid, Texas Kid, Kid Roberts. Brushy did not imply that Oliver was an alias. “Brushy did admit the name Oliver was an alias he had taken from a cousin.” Oliver P Roberts did not have a cousin named Ollie. Brushy’s story included a reference to cousin Ollie, killed in Oklahoma. A man named William Henry Roberts never existed, and had no cousin named Ollie. Brushy’s information is as accurate as Grimm’s fairy tales. “Necessary or not, Brushy continued to use the name Oliver just in case his real name William H Roberts could be traced back to his identity as Billy the Kid.” What a stretch!! In over 40 years since the death of BtK, has anyone found any evidence of a man named William Henry Roberts, or information that suggests such a connection? It is a proven fact that Oliver Roberts was a resident of Van Zandt County when he married Anna Lee in July 1909 and divorced her in November 1910. No evidence has been found that Oliver Roberts died, changed his name, permanently moved, or otherwise completely disappeared from Van Zandt County about 1911. “but we KNOW that something happened to cause his disappearance.” Please tell us what we KNOW about the disappearance of the real Oliver P Roberts. Brushy couldn’t get his story straight. Brushy’s information about his “aunt Kathrine” came from books about Billy the Kid. See “Alias Billy the Kid”, page 58-59. An image labeled, “Kathrine Ann Bonney. Brushy Bill said this woman was Billy the Kid’s aunt.” Henry McCarty was a witness at the 1873 marriage of William H. Antrim and Catherine McCarty, yet he referred to her as Bonney. That’s because both books that Brushy had read, “Authentic Life of Billy the Kid” and “The Saga of Billy the Kid” had identified Catherine as Kathleen Bonney. No evidence has been found that Catherine was ever known as Catherine Bonney. It was not until 1952, two years after Brushy died, that Phillip Rasch and Robert Mullen published the 1873 Santa Fe marriage record of William H. Antrim and Catherine McCarty. Neither Upson nor Burns provided sources to prove that Catherine had been known as Catherine Bonney. No evidence has been found that Catherine McCarty Antrim was ever known as Catherine Bonney.
|
|
|
Post by Josh on Oct 13, 2023 12:55:21 GMT -5
The truth is right there! Most of you must be blind for ignoring facts like that Texas is putting in front of you're eyes. Or you've just read Alias and made up you're mind, wake up people !
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 13, 2023 14:25:35 GMT -5
The Morrison/Sonnichsen book was written by them (I understand mostly Sonnichsen), not by Brushy. You can not quote every comment in that book using "Brushy said". The authors of the book are the ones that made the mistake of calling her "Bonney". I searched the book very carefully and I don't see any place where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". He calls her "Mrs. Antrim". If I'm wrong, please quote the page and paragraph where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". Maybe it's the naysayers who need to wake up.
|
|
|
Post by texas truth teller on Oct 13, 2023 15:40:50 GMT -5
The Morrison/Sonnichsen book was written by them (I understand mostly Sonnichsen), not by Brushy. You can not quote every comment in that book using "Brushy said". The authors of the book are the ones that made the mistake of calling her "Bonney". I searched the book very carefully and I don't see any place where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". He calls her "Mrs. Antrim". If I'm wrong, please quote the page and paragraph where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". Maybe it's the naysayers who need to wake up. The naysayers are awake and well. As I said in the previous post, “Alias Billy the Kid” includes an image (probably a drawing) of a female with the caption, “Kathrine Ann Bonney. Brushy Bill said this woman was Billy the Kid’s aunt.” It is one of many images and photographs immediately following page 58 and before page 59. Copyright 1955 University of New Mexico Press
|
|
|
Post by texas truth teller on Oct 13, 2023 16:43:32 GMT -5
The Morrison/Sonnichsen book was written by them (I understand mostly Sonnichsen), not by Brushy. You can not quote every comment in that book using "Brushy said". The authors of the book are the ones that made the mistake of calling her "Bonney". I searched the book very carefully and I don't see any place where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". He calls her "Mrs. Antrim". If I'm wrong, please quote the page and paragraph where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". Maybe it's the naysayers who need to wake up. The naysayers are awake and well. As I said in the previous post, “Alias Billy the Kid” includes an image (probably a drawing) of a female with the caption, “Kathrine Ann Bonney. Brushy Bill said this woman was Billy the Kid’s aunt.” It is one of many images and photographs immediately following page 58 and before page 59. Copyright 1955 University of New Mexico Press William A Tunstill of Roswell, NM, was another avid Brushy advocate. He is the author of “Billy the Kid and Me Were the Same”, 1958, A Research History of “Billy the Kid” Roberts based on Documents and Family Records. “I have contacted most of Brushy Bill Roberts’ relatives living in East Texas. Third cousin Eulaine Haws has the best collection of family records.” (p. 7) “A personal interview with a second cousin of Brushy Bill, August 1987 in home of cousin.” “I brought some pictures with me and asked her to identify them if she could. All of them were of Brushy Bill with his attorney, William Morris, the second was with Governor Thomas Mary. ‘Yes, she said, that’s Ollie, all right.’ Then she said, ‘I want you and Mrs. Tunstill to see a picture of my grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Ferguson Roberts’. We got up from our chairs and followed her into the living room. There on the wall was a large picture. I looked for about a minute and said I thought that was Brushy Bill’s mother. ‘Oh no’ was her reply. I TOLD HER THE SAME PICTURE WAS ILLUSTRATED ON PAGE 58 IN SONNICHSEN’S BOOK, “ALIAS BILLY THE KID”. (p. 35) Note: Brushy was the half-brother of Eulaine Haws’ grandmother, Martha Vada Roberts Heath. Eulaine’s son, Roy Haws, is the author of “Brushy Bill….Just Another Texas Tall Tale”
|
|
|
Post by texas truth teller on Oct 13, 2023 16:45:46 GMT -5
I believe you missed the point or at least you represent it as such. My response to your previous post was intended to show that the simple facts do not necessarily demonstrate the whole truth of a matter/situation. As such, the "facts" can be construed to prove one thing or another depending on how they are interpreted. I wanted to demonstrate that most or all of the facts you pointed to could be viewed as supporting Brushy's claim as opposed to debunking it. It just take a different mindset. Then you responded by offering more facts. But your facts don't prove the truth. Not to me anyway. I know you'll never be willing to look at it differently, but I guess it's fun to try and help you see through different glasses. I should probably give up on that. I have no rose colored glasses.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 13, 2023 18:31:48 GMT -5
The Morrison/Sonnichsen book was written by them (I understand mostly Sonnichsen), not by Brushy. You can not quote every comment in that book using "Brushy said". The authors of the book are the ones that made the mistake of calling her "Bonney". I searched the book very carefully and I don't see any place where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". He calls her "Mrs. Antrim". If I'm wrong, please quote the page and paragraph where Brushy is quoted as calling her "Bonney". Maybe it's the naysayers who need to wake up. The naysayers are awake and well. As I said in the previous post, “Alias Billy the Kid” includes an image (probably a drawing) of a female with the caption, “Kathrine Ann Bonney. Brushy Bill said this woman was Billy the Kid’s aunt.” It is one of many images and photographs immediately following page 58 and before page 59. Copyright 1955 University of New Mexico Press I am well aware of the photo you refer to. It is labeled as Katherine Ann Bonney. And yes I understand Brushy is said to have claimed this woman was hi aunt. But do you understand Brushy is not "quoted" as saying her name was Bonney. So he was shown the picture and he said possibly "that's my aunt". Where's your evidence he said her name was Bonney? You are clearly putting words in his mouth that he was not quoted as uttering.
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 13, 2023 18:34:07 GMT -5
TTT, can you admit there is no evidence that Brushy said his aunt's name was Catherine Bonney? Can you ever admit you're wrong about anything, even when it is clearly demonstrated to you?
|
|
|
Post by Wayne Land on Oct 13, 2023 18:35:37 GMT -5
Didn't Brushy say that Belle Starr gave him the name "Bonney". I know I read that somewhere. It that's true then obviously he didn't think his aunt's name was Bonney.
|
|