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Post by Wayne Land on Aug 8, 2022 19:26:59 GMT -5
I believe the affidavits were truthful, but I've long said the important ones are Ables and Gallegos. Because her husband knew Billy prior to 1881 and Gallegos knew him before 1881. Their ID's carry a lot of weight. The others saying they'd known him since 1889, etc. may be truthful and probably are but they don't come as close to proving he really was Billy. I agree that all 5 affiants might have believed that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Morrison’s introduction of Brushy Bill to Severo as William H Bonney was not an objective request for identification, but an unspoken request for confirmation of a known fact. Even then, Severo needed a second meeting to agree. Severo looked for brown spots in Brushy’s blue eyes before signing the affidavit. The seven year old Severo must have been up close to Billy several times, and had a phenomenal memory to retain an image of Billy’s eyes for almost 70 years. Severo also was able to visualize the effects of 69 years of aging on a 22 year old young man. Martile made some questionable assertions. “I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garret said he shot him.” (1881) Martile, born in Cooke County, Texas about 1873, was a resident of Lampasas County, Texas, in 1880. It is not obvious that she had an opportunity to meet Billy before 1881. “that Wm. Bonney visited with the Able family before and after, the time it was said that Pat Garret killed him in New Mexico” John C Able and Martelia Bilberry Henderson were married in 1898. William Bonney could not have visited that Able family before 1881. John C Able was living in the household of his parents, John Jackson Able and Nancy Smith in Uvalde County, Texas in 1880. It is not obvious that Billy had an opportunity to visit this Able family. There is a revealing Bilberry family story about Martile’s half-brother, Henry Herrod Bilberry, written by Mollie Bilberry Stoneman, Henry’s daughter. She was born in Texas in 1885 “Henry H. Bilberry and his family settled in James Canyon, near Mayhill in what is now Otero County, New Mexico. The family worked hard to build a house before winter and then had to deal with several other problems. Their cattle were not accustomed to the low temperatures, so Henry and his family traded their cattle for goats. For some supplies, they had to go many miles to the south to Pecos, Texas. It took several days to make a round trip by wagon. By the spring of 1887, almost all of the Bilberry family wanted to go back to Texas. On their return trip to Texas, they went first to Carlsbad, New Mexico, and then across country until they reached the Colorado River, which they followed to San Saba, Texas.” This might explain the reference to the Pecos photograph. i believe the "family" she referred to was John Able's family and that could have been before she was a member of said family.
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Post by DanJohno on Aug 8, 2022 19:36:16 GMT -5
Possibly I didn't see those comments. I don't remember reading anything that was disrespectful to Garrett. I try to visit the board everyday and read anything new but sometimes I may overlook something. Can you locate the specific incidents you refer to and let me know who wrote it and when? I'll look into it. In the meantime, please lay off the sarcasm. Wayne I'm pretty sure the disrespectful comments Leeb is referring to is when a new member misspelled Pat as Oat Garrett and then I started calling Pat- Oat Garrett and Nicknamed him Oatsy. I thought it was funny and light hearted humour but I will take full responsibility for all the disrespectful Garrett comments Leeb is referring to.
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Post by texas truth teller on Aug 8, 2022 19:57:36 GMT -5
I agree that all 5 affiants might have believed that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. Morrison’s introduction of Brushy Bill to Severo as William H Bonney was not an objective request for identification, but an unspoken request for confirmation of a known fact. Even then, Severo needed a second meeting to agree. Severo looked for brown spots in Brushy’s blue eyes before signing the affidavit. The seven year old Severo must have been up close to Billy several times, and had a phenomenal memory to retain an image of Billy’s eyes for almost 70 years. Severo also was able to visualize the effects of 69 years of aging on a 22 year old young man. Martile made some questionable assertions. “I had not seen Billy since before Pat Garret said he shot him.” (1881) Martile, born in Cooke County, Texas about 1873, was a resident of Lampasas County, Texas, in 1880. It is not obvious that she had an opportunity to meet Billy before 1881. “that Wm. Bonney visited with the Able family before and after, the time it was said that Pat Garret killed him in New Mexico” John C Able and Martelia Bilberry Henderson were married in 1898. William Bonney could not have visited that Able family before 1881. John C Able was living in the household of his parents, John Jackson Able and Nancy Smith in Uvalde County, Texas in 1880. It is not obvious that Billy had an opportunity to visit this Able family. There is a revealing Bilberry family story about Martile’s half-brother, Henry Herrod Bilberry, written by Mollie Bilberry Stoneman, Henry’s daughter. She was born in Texas in 1885 “Henry H. Bilberry and his family settled in James Canyon, near Mayhill in what is now Otero County, New Mexico. The family worked hard to build a house before winter and then had to deal with several other problems. Their cattle were not accustomed to the low temperatures, so Henry and his family traded their cattle for goats. For some supplies, they had to go many miles to the south to Pecos, Texas. It took several days to make a round trip by wagon. By the spring of 1887, almost all of the Bilberry family wanted to go back to Texas. On their return trip to Texas, they went first to Carlsbad, New Mexico, and then across country until they reached the Colorado River, which they followed to San Saba, Texas.” This might explain the reference to the Pecos photograph. i believe the "family" she referred to was John Able's family and that could have been before she was a member of said family. {i believe the "family" she referred to was John Able's family and that could have been before she was a member of said family.} John C Able was still single in 1880. His parents’ family John Jackson Able and Nancy Smith, were in Travis County, Texas, in 1870. John C Able was living in the household of his parents, John Jackson Able and Nancy Smith in Uvalde County, Texas in 1880. It is not obvious that Billy had an opportunity to visit either Able family. I do not believe BtK visited with either Able family before 1881.
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Post by MissyS on Aug 8, 2022 21:08:43 GMT -5
It may be possible Billy had went to Uvalde Texas maybe with Tom O’Folliard? After Tom was killed a letter Tom had written to his grandmother was found in his saddle bags telling her that he and Billy were coming to visit her in Texas. Tom’s family was from Uvalde Texas. Tom was killed before he mailed the letter, but could the two have made another visit to see Tom’s grandmother or family? Both Tom and Billy Wilson had ties to Uvalde.
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Post by texas truth teller on Aug 8, 2022 22:05:02 GMT -5
It may be possible Billy had went to Uvalde Texas maybe with Tom O’Folliard? After Tom was killed a letter Tom had written to his grandmother was found in his saddle bags telling her that he and Billy were coming to visit her in Texas. Tom’s family was from Uvalde Texas. Tom was killed before he mailed the letter, but could the two have made another visit to see Tom’s grandmother or family? Both Tom and Billy Wilson had ties to Uvalde. Just a wee bit over 500 miles from Lincoln, NM, to Uvalde, TX. That's over 1,000 miles round trip. While horses can travel 20 to 30 miles daily or more, it's not recommendable for their health in the long-term.
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Post by RonBk on Aug 9, 2022 6:00:06 GMT -5
It may be possible Billy had went to Uvalde Texas maybe with Tom O’Folliard? After Tom was killed a letter Tom had written to his grandmother was found in his saddle bags telling her that he and Billy were coming to visit her in Texas. Tom’s family was from Uvalde Texas. Tom was killed before he mailed the letter, but could the two have made another visit to see Tom’s grandmother or family? Both Tom and Billy Wilson had ties to Uvalde. Just a wee bit over 500 miles from Lincoln, NM, to Uvalde, TX. That's over 1,000 miles round trip. While horses can travel 20 to 30 miles daily or more, it's not recommendable for their health in the long-term. Not impossible at all. Traveling great distances was something a lot of people did back then, right?
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Post by paddyrobertstx on Aug 9, 2022 6:38:27 GMT -5
i'd imagine there wee plenty of towns along the route to Uvalde from Lincoln - Fort Davis, Pecos, Roswell etc and a lot of smaller places in between so more than possible.
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Post by devorerd on Aug 9, 2022 7:52:14 GMT -5
It may be possible Billy had went to Uvalde Texas maybe with Tom O’Folliard? After Tom was killed a letter Tom had written to his grandmother was found in his saddle bags telling her that he and Billy were coming to visit her in Texas. Tom’s family was from Uvalde Texas. Tom was killed before he mailed the letter, but could the two have made another visit to see Tom’s grandmother or family? Both Tom and Billy Wilson had ties to Uvalde. Just a wee bit over 500 miles from Lincoln, NM, to Uvalde, TX. That's over 1,000 miles round trip. While horses can travel 20 to 30 miles daily or more, it's not recommendable for their health in the long-term. Good point TTT...It's a mere 120 miles from Lincoln County to Ft. Sumner so a valid excuse not to take Billie's body in for empirical verification?
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Post by paddyrobertstx on Aug 9, 2022 8:54:20 GMT -5
It may be possible Billy had went to Uvalde Texas maybe with Tom O’Folliard? After Tom was killed a letter Tom had written to his grandmother was found in his saddle bags telling her that he and Billy were coming to visit her in Texas. Tom’s family was from Uvalde Texas. Tom was killed before he mailed the letter, but could the two have made another visit to see Tom’s grandmother or family? Both Tom and Billy Wilson had ties to Uvalde. Just a wee bit over 500 miles from Lincoln, NM, to Uvalde, TX. That's over 1,000 miles round trip. While horses can travel 20 to 30 miles daily or more, it's not recommendable for their health in the long-term. an average trail horse can do 50 miles a day and manage 2 or 3 days before it needs a days break. A fit trail horse can manage 100 miles a day. If Garrett killed the most wanted man in pretty much New Mexico, Texas and Arizona I'd imagine there would be a lot of people wanting to to get their asses to Fort Sumner from Lincoln and Santa Fe? When Jesse James was killed in 1882 he was displayed so people could see. Given that newspapers in around the entire country reported on his actions they'd have paid huge sums of money for the death pics of Billy the Kid.
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Post by MissyS on Aug 9, 2022 12:25:32 GMT -5
Billy and Tom must have been aware of the distance when they planned the trip. Perhaps they had planned to take a stage part of the way? How did Pat Garrett travel to Uvalde from New Mexico when he bought property there? Did he ride a horse, Did he take a stage? Was the same means available to Billy and Tom when they planned to go? How did Tom O’Folliard make it to New Mexico from Uvalde? Reading about him, he left Uvalde in In May of 1878, when he was about nineteen, Tom left Uvalde with a friend, James Woodland, and traveled to Lincoln County, New Mexico. It wasn’t impossible for Tom to make it to New Mexico, so it must not have been impossible to make it back somehow.
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Post by cassandra jane on Aug 9, 2022 12:50:59 GMT -5
Billy and Tom must have been aware of the distance when they planned the trip. Perhaps they had planned to take a stage part of the way? How did Pat Garrett travel to Uvalde from New Mexico when he bought property there? Did he ride a horse, Did he take a stage? Was the same means available to Billy and Tom when they planned to go? How did Tom O’Folliard make it to New Mexico from Uvalde? Reading about him, he left Uvalde in In May of 1878, when he was about nineteen, Tom left Uvalde with a friend, James Woodland, and traveled to Lincoln County, New Mexico. It wasn’t impossible for Tom to make it to New Mexico, so it must not have been impossible to make it back somehow. Especially if they decided to switch horses out frequently if we're talking about the health of horses on such a long trip.
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Post by tboor74 on Aug 10, 2022 4:16:08 GMT -5
I was reading one of the Hardin books recently and there's mention of a couple of Lincoln County 'faces' popping back up in Texas frequently....plainly many of these individuals made such trips as and when required.
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Post by MissyS on Aug 10, 2022 10:26:06 GMT -5
There’s a story I posted about some time ago about the Frontier Times magazine Vol 05 No. 04 - January 1928; A cowboy named Henry Ethridge who claimed he loaned Billy the Kid money in Fort Griffin and mentioned Billy had taken on a job at a ranch in order to take a cattle drive to either Kansas or Nebraska, but he intended to steal the livestock instead, the Ranch was called the Hash Knife Ranch located somewhere between Fort Griffin and Seymour. I found a mention of one old Hash Knife Ranch that was once located in Abilene Texas. I don’t know if this story really happened or not?, but these locations are well into Texas.
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Post by paddyrobertstx on Aug 11, 2022 9:34:44 GMT -5
the Hash Knife ranch was up at Elm Creek which is west of Buffalo Gap on the way to Nolan, bout 160 miles from me. The ranch only operated between mid 1870s and maybe late 1880s. As it happens the owners of Hash Knife ranch were influential in getting the Texas & pacific railroad routed through Taylor County which led to the development of Abilene.
The old Hash Knife ranch is now Belle Vue ranch.
but the answer to the question - travelling 500 miles wasnt unheard of with cattle so more than feasible without.
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Post by RonBk on Aug 11, 2022 11:44:45 GMT -5
Isnt that an odd coincidence its a mere three hour walk between that ranch and Buffalo Gap?
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