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Post by MissyS on Jul 13, 2022 16:12:08 GMT -5
I noticed in a photo of Paco Anaya holding up a framed photo of Billy the Kid taken at the 50th anniversary of the shooting July 14, 1931 the photo he’s holding up at a glance I assumed it was a framed copy and enlargement of the famous photo of Billy we all are familiar with, but looking more closely it doesn’t look to me to be the exact same copy of Billy’s photo, it looks to have a few little differences, the vest doesn’t look visible, The pants are not as baggy as in Billy’s famous pose and it looks like Billy’s hand may be holding the back of a chair perhaps? Not sure but it looks like a few long spindles of a chair back where one hand is? I’m not able to look at a more close up of the photo, so I’m not actually sure what I’m really seeing? I’m wondering if it could be a different version of Billy’s famous pose? If it is, when could have been made? It’s Odd nmdigital.unm.edu/digital/collection/acpa/id/6956/ |
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Post by noreaster on Jul 13, 2022 19:00:29 GMT -5
Hi Missy,
To my eye, it almost appears to be an illustration based on the tintype. However, that would not explain the different clothing appearance. His posture, head position, hat and type of clothing suggest that to me but doesn't mean it is right. You have a great eye for detail. It is hard to believe he would not have had other photos at some point in his life. Photos were such novelties at the time. Given he was known to be a smart dresser and very neat in appearance, it is hard to believe the only photo of him we have is him in disarray....unless of course, it was indeed his only opportunity he had to have a photo taken and took it regardless of his appearance...
All the best
D
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Post by MissyS on Jul 24, 2022 12:19:26 GMT -5
Looking closely, I’m wondering what the objects are on his waist?, it looks like one could be handcuffs? It does look more like a chair his hand is on. I hope one day Paco Anaya’s photo or artwork of Billy will surface and we can see it more clearly, it may be the only one? Seems like Billy liked to give his friends a photo of himself, his teacher perhaps, Dan Dedrick, Deluvina, and possibly Paco Anaya, and Billy had many friends, so no telling how many photos he had made?  |
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Post by RonBk on Jul 27, 2022 4:30:35 GMT -5
And here is one more photo with yet another set of clothes. The shape of the hat is also different at the top, could be the same hat but at another angle? Also his mouth appears to be more closed?   |
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Post by MissyS on Jul 27, 2022 12:31:31 GMT -5
And here is one more photo with yet another set of clothes. The shape of the hat is also different at the top, could be the same hat but at another angle? Also his mouth appears to be more closed? View AttachmentView AttachmentGreat find! Could this be the same one that was on the cover of Chas. A Siringo’s book History of Billy the Kid on the first edition published around 1920. If it is the same image, I wonder how Siringo acquired it? It may be Siringo’s personal photo of Billy? Charles Angelo Siringo was a detective, bounty hunter, lawman, agent for the Pinkerton National Detective Agency, and author, he met and knew Billy the Kid. It’s Puzzling why it’s different? |
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 27, 2022 13:13:12 GMT -5
I could be wrong of course but I think both these other photos that look different from the Dedrick-Upham tintype are just poorly copied versions of that tintype. I'm no expert on the topic of various ways photos can be copied. But just as an example, if you take a grayscale image and convert it to pure black and white, the the areas that were originally gray get printed as either black or white so the color of the cloths, shadows on the face, etc., all look different. Notice though, how the angle of the head, the position of the hair coming from under the hat, the position of the rifle and the way the hand grips it, are all very much the same. What are the chances of all the similarities being there if the picture was taken at different times, different poses?
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 27, 2022 13:15:44 GMT -5
Some of the differences could also be the result of some photo studio's attempt to "touch up" or clean up the original tintype image.
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Post by RonBk on Jul 27, 2022 14:09:24 GMT -5
I also thought about that, its a possibility both are the same photo. As Wayne points out, the head is tilted the same as well as the way he holds the carbine. But still the clothes look very different and I struggle to see they are the same. Look at the neck where the known tintype has a scarf, that is not the same at all on the other photo where it looks more like a collar? But probably you are right on that one Wayne.
However in the Paco Anaya photo Billy clearly wears different pants. Unless someone edited the photo in photoshop, which seems rather unlikely, that photo can't be the same?
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Post by RonBk on Jul 28, 2022 3:14:54 GMT -5
And here is one more photo with yet another set of clothes. The shape of the hat is also different at the top, could be the same hat but at another angle? Also his mouth appears to be more closed? View AttachmentView AttachmentGreat find! Could this be the same one that was on the cover of Chas. A Siringo’s book History of Billy the Kid on the first edition published around 1920. If it is the same image, I wonder how Siringo acquired it? It may be Siringo’s personal photo of Billy? Charles Angelo Siringo was a detective, bounty hunter, lawman, agent for the Pinkerton National Detective Agency, and author, he met and knew Billy the Kid. It’s Puzzling why it’s different? On the cover photo of Siringo's book there seems to be a grip of a holstered revolver visible next to the hand that holds the Winchester. Perhaps they took two photos and in this one Billy had tucked the sweater in behind his other revolver?  |
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Post by leeb on Jul 28, 2022 7:27:34 GMT -5
They all look like very poor illustrations.
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Post by MissyS on Jul 28, 2022 12:21:47 GMT -5
Great find! Could this be the same one that was on the cover of Chas. A Siringo’s book History of Billy the Kid on the first edition published around 1920. If it is the same image, I wonder how Siringo acquired it? It may be Siringo’s personal photo of Billy? Charles Angelo Siringo was a detective, bounty hunter, lawman, agent for the Pinkerton National Detective Agency, and author, he met and knew Billy the Kid. It’s Puzzling why it’s different? On the cover photo of Siringo's book there seems to be a grip of a holstered revolver visible next to the hand that holds the Winchester. Perhaps they took two photos and in this one Billy had tucked the sweater in behind his other revolver? View AttachmentSince the Siringo photo was in a book published 1920, then it was around at least from that time. Was it possible to do that kind of changes to a photo as to change the location of a holster, and change the clothing? How much changes to a photo could have been achievable at that time, and what purpose would a photo be changed that way for? Did someone not like the way Billy looked in the Dedrick photo and have it touched up or changed to make him look more refined? Could Billy the Kid have had this done himself? Wouldn’t it have been less trouble to just pose again for another photo? Looking more closely to the Paco Anaya photo it looks like possibly the backdrop or background was different than the Dedrick photo background, there’s a framed picture or two hanging on the wall behind the standing Billy. The Paco Anaya photo could be a drawing or artwork or something?. I was able to find another different image of Paco Anaya sitting in a chair holding up the same framed picture of the Kid in a booklet “ The ballad and history of Billy the Kid, facts and legends” published 1966 by George Shumard, it says it’s an early day photo of Billy the Kid. This same image of Paco sitting and holding the same unclear framed picture is also in Paco Anaya’s book “I buried Billy”. It’s Kinda odd that this unique pose of Billy wasn’t enlarged and used in Paco Anaya’s book. He died in 1947, so maybe this picture he’s holding got lost before the book was published? I believe it would have likely been in that book as there are many photos in the book and theres a somewhat cleaned up image of the Dedrick tintype on one page in that book. The picture Paco is holding also looks like an 8x10 size. Did they make photographs that size back then? It’s probably an enlargement. |
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Post by Wayne Land on Jul 28, 2022 13:59:50 GMT -5
Of course there was no Photoshop computer software back then, but photos were sometimes touched up. I have one of my grandmother who died in 1926 that is in color because as the only photo of her we have, someone in the family hired a photographer/artist to colorize and enlarge the photo back in the 1940's. My dad always insisted it didn't look like her after they touched it up. Touching up to remove blemishes, etc. was being done by hand a long time before photoshop ever came about. I suspect someone wanted a picture of Billy that looked better than the famous tintype and someone drew are inked over it to make changes they thought would improve the picture. Too many layers of clothes? Ink over the vest. Gun on the wrong hip since he was actually right handed? Ink over the gun and paint in a new one on the right side. Pants too baggy? Ink over those too.
It's just too much a stretch to think Billy posed for more than one photo with the same exact tilt of the head and position of the rifle, hat at the same angle, etc. Go back and pull out all the pictures you can find of yourself and see if there are any two where your stance and overall pose is identical. I just think that would defy the odds.
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Post by RonBk on Jul 28, 2022 16:39:39 GMT -5
It does defy the odds yes. But then again so does a lot of events that do occur. Strange things do happen all the time, everywhere. And its not that strange I think, to take two pictures at one occation with roughly the same stance. I have taken such photos several times myself. To me it seems at least equally far fetched that someone would go through the trouble of editing out the revolver and then editing another one in on the other side. But I agree it is certainly a possibility.
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Post by Ernst on Nov 21, 2022 16:54:00 GMT -5
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